Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Oh, and welcome back everyone to another episode of coloring outside the Memos I am Dr. Lizzie, and I'm here with oh, no, I'm not Dr. Lizzie Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Tiffany. I'm here with Dr. Lizzie. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Hey? Y'all. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: You know what we we are talking about transcriptions today. So. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Sure are, and the goofy things that happen. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): This is a good leave in example of what happens when you're doing interviews. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Exactly. Exactly. So before we get started today. Don't forget to follow us on Twitter at Cotm, Underscore Pod or email us at cotm pod@gmail.com and check out our website@www.cot. pod.com. So Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Dr. Lizzie, not Doctor Tiffany. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: So we're talking. We're gonna 1st so that we got your backpack on because we actually are going on a journey today. Okay. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I've got it on. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Got it on. So today we're talking about transcriptions. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Or we get started with that. We're gonna do like a little history part. We're not on jeopardy, so don't worry about that. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: but Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Ken Jennings don't come after me because I would get all the answers wrong. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: but Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I mean, so we're talking about transcriptions. And the interesting thing about transcriptions is Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: there is this interesting history Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: that goes all the way back to like Egyptians? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: there's been this religious connection. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I was expecting you to say, like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): going back to when we 1st started conceptualizing research in England in the 18 hundreds is what I was ready for. But ancient Egypt. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: No, I know. So we're talking about the earliest. And this is just on the interwebs here on the interwebs. So the earliest form of transcription is recorded, history dating back to Egypt in 3,400 Bce. So Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Bce being before common era in ancient Egypt, and where scribes write down what they found as laws, or in the history, or whatever. And so I thought that was really interesting. We will put the link of that where we found this on on our our notes for you to look at. Take a look at it. But Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know, when we're talking about transcriptions. I mean, this is before Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: paper paper, you know, like as we know it today, and then people are tapping into walls. Or and then, you know. Then there's papyrus being used, and then brushes being used, and then in this particular Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I don't even know what to call it article. I'm gonna call it an article Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It's an article. It's just not a peer reviewed one. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: It's not a peer reviewed article. Yeah, not a peer reviewed article like talks about the history of of transcription as a tool of religion. So it talks about that, then European Renaissance. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: So it walks us through all of this. But the interesting part Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: is that Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: we talk about it talks about the invention of the typewriter. So for anybody who does not know what a typewriter is. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And half of the room just stopped listening to our podcast cause. They felt old. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Typewriter. What do I? Why do I need to typewriter? Should I buy and invest in a typewriter? Go to Amazon? Or what other big box. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Answer was, Yes, they're fabulous. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: They're fantastic tools. Yes, Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: so! And we are not sponsored by Amazon for the record. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Typewriters. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Typewriters or typewriters. So the interesting thing is that people are using typewriters. I mean to also Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: to take notes and to transcribe. I mean, there's a rich history that is there. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: so I think that's something that's really really important for us to note. And again, typewriters are very similar to computers, except there's no screen sort of. So there's no screen. There's a little. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Backspace. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: There's a backspace. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: and there's like a little. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Depending on how fancy and how. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: He! He! Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Some of the typewriter we're talking about like the typewriter I used to play on when I was a kid didn't have a backspace. It just had the click, click keys, and it was great Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): so much fun. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I had the typewriter where it was. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: You had the backspace, and then Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: but there was also the ribbon where you could, you know, like you could remove the ink. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And us. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: So, yeah, yeah, I I love that thing. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Was really expensive. Back then. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: It was very expensive. It was very expensive, but before we get completely off guard, go down this other road on our journey here, typewriters are really important. And then Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: then we have the age of the computer. So I just fast forward us through this like history of transcriptions here and. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Thousands of years of history condense into a conversation about typewriters. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: So a conversation about typewriters? Yes, so transcription in the Asia computers. So the really part, like, I think, was something that's really important for us to note is that Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: computers help change the way that we transcribe. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I mean, yes. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: like, you see, this evolution, I mean, that's really something that's important is that we see this evolution over time. But with the with the I'm going to put in quotes. And this is in the article, The Age of computers. We really see this evolution of how we are connecting with the data, how we are transcribing things Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: or interviews. And so I think that's something that's really important Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: to take note of and so now we've got like people have audio files like they're able to download it into a program and it spits it out. I mean, even here on zoom, which we're not sponsored by zoom, either. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): We ain't sponsored by nobody. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: It's not to buy anybody so. But the interesting thing about zoom, I mean, depend. And again, it depends on the license that your institution, or whatever you have like, it will spit out the transcription of whatever is being said. So Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: that's really something important. We're also talking about accessibility. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Not. I didn't realize that. You know, it was like, so we're gonna talk about accessibility on this podcast. Today, talking about transcripts. But that's something that we always try to do with our with our podcast is provide the Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: the Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: the actual, the words of what we're saying with our podcast for, our other listeners, you know. So I think that's something that's really important. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: So here we are. We've fast forwarded through the ages of transcriptions. And so I'm gonna turn it over to you, Dr. Lizzie. Not myself, but Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: because you're gonna take us through like what transcriptions have done with computers. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So thank you for that history. Dr. Tiffany. Is all it's so interesting to think back about how far we've come and how different it is now. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): so Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): when I 1st started my very 1st qualitative project Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I had, I was just a research assistant as a grad student and I had to go through Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): transcripts that we had gotten from a company of Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): interviews that were done in another language Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): that I wasn't a part of, and I didn't develop the research question or the research protocol or anything. We got these back, and the Transcription Company not only transcribed them, but translated them to English, so I had to go through and read through them to make sure that they were actually correct. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): When I didn't know the context of the original interview. And I just remember that being such a mind, blowing experience of like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): what even is that like? How am I being asked to do this. And like this is such important data. And I just felt like I was a fish out of water, right? And my second transcription experience was with interviews that I had done. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and they gave me a special machine to plug into my computer that had a pedal, and I would sit with a pedal, and I would stop and start like. And I had the split screen up because I didn't have 2 screens at that day because the grad school lab didn't have Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): 2 screens on the computers. And so you're trying to navigate between different programs and stop and start with the pedal. But the pedal only worked if you were just in the audio program and not on the word program. And I just remember being like My God, this is so freaking hard, and by the time fast forward several years I get to my dissertation. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I wrote into my grant that I was going to send all of my files data files to Tammy Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): TEMI, not sponsored by them either. Y'all and it was the most incredible experience of my life. It was like that day in trigonometry when you learn that a graphing calculator can do your hours of math problems in 2 seconds. And I was like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): why have I been living in the Dark Ages. And Tenney is this beautiful program that, like within 10 seconds, it spits out your full transcript and it will flag areas where it's not sure if it picked up the right thing, and so you can just click on the little speaker above it and hear it and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): fix it up, and you're fine. And so my research assistants, who like me when I was a research assistant, didn't have any clue about any of the things, could just go through and use my tummy login and just adjust things quickly. And so they finished transcribing within hours rather than within days or weeks, like I had when I 1st started, and it was magical. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: So I have a question for you. Cause I know in some other qualitative groups that I'm a part of online. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: there's this big discussion about Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: whether or not people should do their own transcriptions, because they're too distant from the data Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: versus like sending it away and then Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: having it come back to you like, you know, and. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, yeah. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: And you know, it's this, it's this huge. It becomes this huge debate. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It's a massive debate in the field. I have a whole section on that later but we could jump there now, since you asked it, because I think it's a good question. And I think Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): as I'm scrolling to find the right section of my notes Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): one of the things that I think we should think about with. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I'm Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): like, if you have somebody else transcribed for you. I want you to think very hard about Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): what your research question is Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): because I think that comes back to the research question. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): If your research question Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): lends itself to a verbatim transcription versus an edited transcription versus a Jeffersonian transcription versus a Godwin transcription. I think all of those matter in which Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): style we're using, and whether or not we're paying somebody else to do it, or whether we're using a service like Temi or others. Otter AI is another really popular one, or Zoom, like you mentioned before, is a popular one. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): All of those are great. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But what are the implications? How does your transcription? How is your transcription method informed by your research question? And then the other piece that I can't help but think of, particularly since we so often talk about doing research on the cheap or how to do qualitative research. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): That's so time intensive when you're expected to do so many pubs in the faculty setting, or most research settings honestly like, how do you balance all of that right. And so one of the like, I think you need to ask yourself 3 questions. What is my research question? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): How is my transcription style adding to, or taking away from my research question. And then 3. Do I have time for this style of transcription? And if not, how can I change my research question, so that Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): all of these things are fitting together. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: That makes you know, that makes a lot of sense. I think the other part that I worry about as a researcher is, if I'm sending Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: my transcript Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: over to let's say Temi, or or the audio file over to Timmy, or Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: or what have you? Or even in zoom? How encrypted is the system. How protected is the system. And I think that's something that I definitely worry about. I know with Zoom, because it's Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know, here with the American university license. It's encrypted. But I think with these other programs that are not attached to universities, that's something that I'm always worried about is, you know is, should that be? Do you think that should be a concern of. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Of course. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: A research. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Of course, cause it's it's protecting your data, right? So like, ask your Irb about it. If you're concerned with other programs. I asked my irb before I went with Tammy. I researched it very thoroughly. I talked to other researchers who had used it, and then I asked my Irb and I said, Can I use this, or can I not? And they looked at the implications of it, and they said, It's fine, totally go for it. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So like. But use your critical thinking skills with all of that right cause. That is a really important concern. And it's an important concern with research assistance, too. Right? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Spring. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Whether you're paying them or not. If you're having them, do transcriptions, are you having them sign some kind of nda? Are you having them like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): are you teaching them the ethics? Are you making them go through a city training? What are you doing to make sure that they're actually prepared for handling your data. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Anyone who is touching your data in any capacity, whether it's a company or another person. You have to go through those Irb steps. I think that's critical. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Wow, thank you so much. Cause I I know that's been a big conversation. I in the circles I've been in, and you know it's. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know, even when it comes down to coding the data. I know we're not talking about coding today, and I know we've talked about it in the past. But Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: people have had this conversation of oh, well, if you're not transcribing, that means that you're really not associating yourself with the with the study itself, or you're you're not really close with the data. And I'm like, well, if I just send it off, I'm trying to make it a little bit faster, you know, or you know, if if I can use these tools that's possible. Now, do you? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: And again, I don't know Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: how cost effective Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: these things are these programs are. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: what? What is your suggestion? Because I mean, you vote Timmy into your grant. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, Temmy is actually pretty affordable. I think they do the first, st or well, at least it was when I was using it. But again. This was back in 2,019. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): The world has changed since then, so I don't know what their prices are. But Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): when I used it the first, st like 2 HI think, were free Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): where the 1st audio file, regardless of how long it was, was free, maybe, and then Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): from then on. It was like 10 cents a minute, or something like that, and for the number of interviews I had, and the length of time that they were slated. To be like that was an okay thing to budget for, and that didn't feel outrageous to me for how good of a service it was. And like all of the encryption, and so on, and so forth. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): but like the human research assistants that I had go through and clean all of that for me, or like I did some of them, and they did some of them right. We split it up. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I think I ended up paying them another. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I don't know 2 weeks worth of work for all of that right which at 15 an hour, or whatever that is, for 10 HA week or however long I had them. I don't really remember right, like all of the specifics of that. But that was a lot more money than the Temmy was right. And then I think about like some of our other studies that we've done together and like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it took 6 months of research assistants time to get all of those transcriptions done, and that was thousands of dollars that we paid them right versus the Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): relatively small cost of 10 cents a minute like you can't Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): pay a human 10 cents a minute for transcribing. That's not ethical, and. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Oh, my gosh! No! No! Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And like Zoom does it for free. But again, you still have to go back through zoom, and, like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): the temmy one, the cool feature of that is that it like highlights for you where there are issues, or as you're reading the transcript, you can just click on it, and you can hear the audio attached to that part of the transcript. It's. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Tell them. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So much easier. I haven't personally used auto AI. But my understanding is, it's very, very similar. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Okay. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So like I think it saves you a lot of time. And sometimes that Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): time is bold, right like, if you have to get out 3 pubs a year. You don't have time to sit there and listen through the transcripts 12 times, you know. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But, on the other hand. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): if you have the freedom to be able to really dive deep. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I think there's nothing better than diving deep into transcriptions. Right? There was one professor I took in grad school. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): She used to wax poetically about transcriptions, and I remember the 1st time I heard her going off. I like, had this look Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): of like smelling sour milk. The entire lecture, and, like my face, was something because she came up to me afterwards, and we had this whole long conversation, and it completely rocked my world and changed my whole idea about transcripts Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): which leads us nicely into the next Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): part of what I had wanted to talk about with this Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): topic is Jeffersonian transcription. Have you ever done Jeffersonian transcription, Dr. Tiffany. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: So, Dr. Lizzie, you were the 1st person who told me about Jeffersonian transcription. And then Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Dr. Lucia. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: yeah, read like she. It was her that told me about a little bit more, and I'm like what I could have been doing this the whole time, you know. I you know, because Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I think for me Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: doing transcription is. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: it's not. There's more than one way to do it. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: And I think that's the thing that I Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: did not realize while I was doing my doctoral program. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: and Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I'm just so grateful to have had well, to have a friend like you who was like. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Oh, well, do you know about Jeffersonian? And like, when their voice goes like this, this is what it means. And then, when their voice goes like this, this is what it means, and and knowing that the person Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: who also helped me with my transcript, Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: well doing the transcription like she could have, we could have used Jeffersonian Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: throughout my dissertation. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Because she knows me that well, you know. And so Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: but anyway, that's a long story to say. No, I yes, I've heard of it? Have I used it? No. Would I like to use it? Of course. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, right? Like, it's it's such a different style. So, listeners, if you've never seen Jeffersonian transcription, we're gonna include some links, have some pulled for you and saved for you. But what I want you to think about with Jeffersonian transcription Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): is the difference between a 2D. Movie and a 3D. Movie and a 2D movie. You see it, you enjoy it. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Whatever a 3D. Movie, you feel like you're in the middle of the action right? And you feel like it's right up close to you unless you're like Doctor Tiffany and I, and wear glasses, and it makes you really nauseous to go to a 3D. Movie. I mean, I don't know if that's true for you, Doctor Tiffany, but it is for me. I hate 3D movies. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: It definitely is very true. It definitely is very true. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: especially if it's like a park or something. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: And you got water coming at you and stuff like that. And the only thing that I'm thinking about is, where has that water been like? But anyway. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Anyway, we digress so Jeffersonian transcription is trying to immerse you like a 3D movie is trying to immerse you right? It's trying to get you there. It's trying to make sure you understand the nuance. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So why is this important? Well, let me give you an example I give to my students when I teach them about consent. Are you ready? I'm gonna say the exact same thing twice. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So the 1st time. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): No, don't touch me there Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): versus Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): number 2. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): No, do not touch me there. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I said the exact same freaking words. They had wildly different meanings. Right? You could hear the different meanings. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I could hear the different meanings. One was very playful, the other one is very much like Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Hmm, Buddy, stop. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): We. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Going that far. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Right like. So I think this is absolutely critical when we're thinking about Jeffersonian transcription, because in Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): a standard transcription you are not going to see the difference in that. You're just going to read the flat words of No, don't touch me there. So it's kind of like that 2D movie right? Like you maybe can sort of glimpse that or sort of feel where the motion is. But in the 3D. Version you're really experiencing it right. You're seeing that nuance of the emotion Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): you're seeing moments where people are talking at the same time you're seeing. Their voice went up or their voice went down, or they took a period to cry, or they had a big old sigh, or whatever it is, right. And so you're getting this Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): sense of emotion and flavor of what is said behind just the words. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Now, I would argue in most interviews you can sort of pick up on that emotional undercurrent based on the words around the words. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But sometimes it's really really helpful to have that extra Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): oops of like, what is going on right? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Okay? Questions on Jeffersonian before I move further. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I think that's perfect. I really like the example. It made a lot of sense. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I mean. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I think you never explained it to me that way. But you definitely explained to me in a very similar way. So I think for our listeners. They will definitely grasp Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Jeffersonian. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Okay, cool. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So Jeffersonian is typically used with conversational analysis. As is Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): oh, and I should also note, Jeffersonian was created by Gail Jefferson in 1985. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So good job, Gail, I always like to note that. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I'll we're hollering at you, Gail. I know. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It's not the Jefferson that we tend to think of in America. Scale. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): The Goodwin method was created by Charles Goodwin in 1981. And it is another form typically used with conversational analysis of transcription. And what you do with this method is you are video recording as well as audio recording somebody at the same time. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And so then, when you're going through the transcript, you are watching the video at the same time as you're cleaning up the transcript. And you grab stills from the video and you put it next to different words. So you'll have like a still of a video. And then like a chunk of text, and then you'll have like another line on the table, and you'll have another still of the video, and then another chunk of text. And so it is Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): very long, right? And there are photos along with it that you're looking at. And Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): in this version and Goodwin's version of transcriptions. When you're doing your coding, you may also go back and re-watch those videos again. So you may watch those videos. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I don't know, on average, something like 20 or 50 times as you're going through that whole data analysis process. So you're knowing them forwards, backwards and sideways. And you might just publish those stills with a chunk of text next to it in your publications. But as you're presenting those at research conferences and so forth, you might show a video. A clip along with that I know is that wild. So it's a whole different style of qualitative research. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It's again very time. Intensive. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I was about to say that that sounds time intensive. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Right. So you might be working on that same project for like 5 years. And that's Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): perfectly acceptable and normal in that style of research right? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But like for us as public health folks, we're like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): gotta get out multiple pubs every year, let alone like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): one for a long time. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Pause Lindsay. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): alright, y'all so. The Goodwin method is time consuming. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Frankly, the Jeffersonian method is as well. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So you might be asking yourself like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): why would. I want to do that? Typically when you look at published qualitative studies and peer review journal articles, they will say. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): transcription verbatim transcription was used, or something like that. There's some kind of phrase of verbatim transcription. Right? Doctor Tiffany, would you agree with that? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yep, I would completely agree with that definitely, definitely. No, go ahead. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So I think that most people use that phrase without understanding what it actually means. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: To what you're gonna tell us right? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I am gonna tell you, you're right. Absolutely so. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): A verbatim transcription literally means Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): every single Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): etc, is included Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): most people. When they're doing their transcriptions they clean some of that out Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): right, or Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): maybe they sort of leave them in, but they clean up the grammar a little bit, or something like that verbatim transcription should just be a wall of text without Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): anything other than what was strictly said. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I have to admit I like verbatim. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: do you? I? Okay. So Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: let me tell you why I like verbatim, because to me, when somebody is talking. They're or like or Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: boom like it. It it means to it. To me it means that they're thinking Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: they could be thinking they're taking that pause, that intentional pause to process. What's going on so even in, I know in my dissertation I included those ums, those likes, or hold on like Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I I don't know. I just, but it is time I mean, not time consuming, but it takes up a lot of space. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: and maybe. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Good. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: And if you're doing word, count for a journal article, it takes up that word Count. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Right. So like I will Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): include them technically right. But Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I will also like as I'm going through and doing a final sweep of the transcriptions before moving on to the coding phase of research. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I will also usually add really long pause and brackets. So I'm not doing a formal Jeffersonian method. But I like to have those indicators when there's like multiple seconds, right? Or when it's like 30 seconds of pause like that feels significantly different to me than a Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): oh, that's a good question. Right? Like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): a 3 count. And then you're answering cause it's a normal think time right? The average processing time we expect is one to 3 seconds. In normal conversational. Speak in classrooms. We expect a 5 to 7, second pause, or some, and on zoom we're often told a 10 second pause. Right? Cause. There's delays with technology and with processing and speed and all of these different pieces. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So it's okay to have those normal pauses. But when it's a really extended pause, I think that's significant. And that's noticeably different Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): in a lot of my work. I have asked people very emotional about emotional topics, so I will include crying pause, or Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): a like whoop of glee, or something like that. And I will note some of those differentially. That's again not formal Jeffersonian, but a little bit like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): annotated, or a little bit extra with that verbatim transcription, and sometimes I will clean out some of my own. Hmm Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): like sound queues, because the transcriptions will always pick those up, and I'm like, I don't really care if I was reacting to them. I care what they were reacting to as the participant right. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: You know, as you're talking, I'm the one thing that's coming Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: up for me is Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: when somebody is responding to a question Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: that it's quite possible that Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: many of the like, if you're interviewing more than one participant. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: they could have similar reactions Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: to to this, to whatever you're saying, and that could be a part of this bigger picture, for, like coding again, I know we're not talking about coding today, but. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But truly, and I think it also has an impact on like trauma and research that we're just starting to open that door of conversation on right? And so like, if everyone had a really big pause, is that bringing up trauma for people? Are we prying into areas? We shouldn't. And research, or maybe we should still pry into those, but we should do it in a different way, like, how do we actually take care of participants and ourselves when we're doing the research right. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Right? Right? I mean, it's it's. And I think this is this is the stuff people. This is the stuff that is not often discussed in the classroom. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: This is, you know, I mean, and Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I mean, if if somebody had said this to me while I was taking Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: a class. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I mean, I probably would have been like, Okay, all right. Now. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: now we're talking, you know. But. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Hidden. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: We don't. I don't recall Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: having these conversations in my classroom. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Because we didn't. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: We didn't. No, no, no. So I'm really glad that you're bringing this up today. I'm really. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Good. Thank you. I'm glad we're having this discussion, too. I think it's an important one, and that brings me to that question you asked at the beginning, right like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): of how do we decide which style to use? And I think Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): we want to think about what is lost right with each transcription style. So if we have an edited transcript. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): one of my early mentors said to me. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Well, it doesn't really matter if somebody is saying like. And I said, actually, I think it does, though, and she's like, Well, how do you mean? And I was like, well, if I say. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): like, you know cookies are great. It doesn't like isn't actually doing anything there. But if I'm saying Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): like, you know, my sexuality, I sort of understood it like when I was like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): 15. But I didn't like really understand, like, how it actually functions like, you know, like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): like, it changes over time. So I just said, like 80 likes in a row on purpose. Right? And I'm making up this Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): pretend interview in my head. But some of those likes are filler words, and some of those likes are doing a lot of lifting because they're trying to draw a comparison to this Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): concept that I don't have words to describe. And so I think if we just full stop erase all of those likes, because it's hard to understand sometimes what the person is saying when you're not listening to it. And you're just reading a flat transcription. You're losing some of that beauty. If you're just saying, get rid of all of those likes. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You know what I mean like so. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: it's I mean, you're you're bringing up Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: something that Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I'm thinking about azure saying like Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: 50 million times, cause I'm wondering, do do you find that when you're doing your interviews, that Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: there is a generational not to sound agest. But there's a generational Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: difference between people who use the word like versus using other filler words. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): yeah, it is. Yes. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: And as you were talking I thought to myself, I'm like, Okay. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: this, this is very interesting. This is very interesting. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Like I like again, like, I know, I use the word interesting a whole lot, and the word like a whole lot. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): We're products of the 80 s. It's just the word that we use. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Like for sure. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: As we twirl our hair. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Lean into the stereotype Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: To, the. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Oh! Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: But I mean. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I I think that there's there's something to be said about Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: all these different types of Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: ways of transcribing, of ways of transcribing. Stop. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Right right? And so I think the other example I came up with for what is lost. Well, I came up with 3 actually, but the second one I came up with is. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): if your transcriber is not the same race, ethnicity, sexuality, gender, religion. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and other additional identity markers what is lost by how they're transcribing right? So maybe they're transcribing. So, for instance, let me use myself as an example, and my rural country midwest little heart, and I'm going to give you this little example of like. If somebody from an urban place heard me give this speech, they would transcribe it very differently than if somebody from a rural space heard this. So if I were to tell you. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): let's say I was talking about Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): physical activity in rural areas. And I was like, well, you know, I went for this walk down to the creek, and then we took the creek for a stretch down to the creek, and somebody who's transcribing that from a city is going to be like Creek Creek, and they're not going to Spell Creek. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): CRIC. K. They're going to spell it CREK every time. But in my little rural country heart a creek is different than a creek. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and like they're different bodies of water Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): for me. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I understand that most people think that they're the same, and that's fine. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But this happens with people who are white, transcribing people who are black. Right? They're gonna not know a bonnet. They're not gonna know how to Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): transcribe words and the spelling that they are. They're just going to transcribe them flat in the same way, and you lose something with that right? You lose some of the beauty of that. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: It's, you know. I think this Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: comes to show that when we're doing this type of work we have to be culturally sensitive. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: we just have to be and Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: it. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I mean, we've talked about it in other Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: episodes where we're not doing research on. But we're doing research with Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: people Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: of even Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: of of marginalized populations. And so it's just it's, you know, you're bringing up so much, so, so much so. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, I Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: yeah, full stop right there. I Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I don't even know where I'm going with this. But yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I know. I mean, that's okay, right? Like. So I think. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): really sit with what is lost, right? What is gained by your transcription method, but also really sit with what is lost. And then, I think, go back to that research question. So your research question is super important, what method? And it should allude to like what kind of method you want. If you are digging in to experiences. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): then you aren't gathering some of that emotional tenor like, what are you losing? Right? Go back to that 1st question, what are you losing? And that should help you understand which transcription method to pick? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): How much time do you have? Be honest with yourself? Jeffersonian takes a lot of time. So again, you can do the cheater method like I sometimes do, and add brackets with crying sigh. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): delight, noise! Whatever right talking at the same time as interviewer. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): couldn't understand this word, because people were talking at the same time. Whatever it is right, you can add some of those in your transcription that's quote unquote verbatim, and you have a like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): a hybrid Jeffersonian method. I don't think true Jeffersonian transcription purists would agree with me on that at all. But that's what I'm going to call it, and like you can still get that essence of some of that emotional tenor without having to do the depth of work of learning all of the symbols and pieces of Jeffersonian. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Wow! I think we have covered so much on our little Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: backpack journey. We went to Egypt. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): We did. We popped over for some time in the Uk. With where these conversational analysis methods were developed. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: We use a typewriter. Yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Oh, and here's the other tip that I have for you all. At. You might wanna contact your Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): research like if there's a research department at your university, when I was doing some digging on like qualitative transcription methods. Every university and their brother had some kind of web page on like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): services that their university offers. So you might be able to rent some of those things like the pedal, I think, still exists, and is around and various other things. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Pedal still exists. I now, I will admit I tried using the pedal. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: It's kind of like learning to drive. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It is. It's hard. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: It's hard. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But I will say, like better earphones, like, even if you don't think you have any hearing loss. If you get a really like, if you rent a really good set of earphones from the university like that can really help with transcribing cause one of my issue, like, sometimes people just talk Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): softly, or they're not using a special mic or something else. And so it's really hard to hear their audio. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Right. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And even if you crank it up, if you have a special set of headphones that can really help with that transcribing, yeah, you can also contact your accessibility resources department, or whatever it's called at your university. And a lot of them have free programs that the university is to subscribe to like a speech to text kind of program. So you can have that up and running while you're doing your interviews. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You can also get like speech to text pens. So they're like kind of thicker pens. And they record what you're speaking while you're speaking it, and as you're taking notes, and it will then, when you plug the USB. Of it into your computer later, it'll pop up your notes that you wrote while you were handwriting, and the transcription next to each other. So you'll be able to see your research notes and your audio recording side by side. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: What? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, they're really cool. They're really good for students with Adhd, so they can record lectures, and then they can go back to them later, and compare their notes to what the lecture was, and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): but I think they're really useful for this as well. So like the AR or the like Accessibility office may not be able to let you borrow those because they're so in demand by students. They might be able to tell you what brands they'd like, or what ones they found that are most useful, and then you might be able to use your grant to buy that or your research funds, or whatever, and so like. That might be a solution that would be really helpful for people. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Any other. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): any last thoughts on. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Drown. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): As we're wrapping up. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: No, you know, I mean, I know at at when we were at Indiana we had a whole Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I don't want to say department, but like unit dedicated to qualitative research. And so, you know, if you wanted to borrow a recorder or even use the lab like all these things that you're talking about like we have that available to us. And Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know I definitely agree with you like, see what your university has to offer. Don't limit yourself. Do not limit yourself. Just ask. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: So. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: yeah. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: well, I think that's it. Dr. Lizzie. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I think it is Dr. Tiffany. See? Y'all, you know, go to our Twitter, go to our website, go to our email. Look at our show notes for all of our references. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Definitely definitely well on that note. Thank you, everybody. And we'll see you next time. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Cheers. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Here's.