Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Okay, you, ready? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yes. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yay and welcome everyone back to another episode of coloring outside the Memos. I am Dr. Tiffany. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And I am Dr. Lizzie. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: We are so excited that you are going to be joining us today today. Don't forget to email us at cotmpod@gmail.com. Also check out our website, www.cotmpod.com, where we will post all of our updates of episodes and your summaries and all that lovely jazz. So today, Dr. Lizzie and I, we are talking about trauma, informed interviews. How do we? Even? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: How do we get here? I don't know. Maybe because everything we do is can be like connected to trauma. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You know. That's exactly right, though, Dr. Tiffany. I think Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it's so common in qualitative interviews to have trauma come up. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I was thinking the other day of like. What could a qualitative study even be that trauma wouldn't come up, and I was like, maybe cookies. Cookies are such a happy food. And then I was like, Yeah, but Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): when do you get cookies when you're a kid like I don't know. This never happened to me, but I imagine that a lot of people like have their mom make them cookies when they're having a bad day. And like that could bring up trauma. And Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): yeah Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): sorts of things. Or maybe your mom never did that for you. And that brings up trauma for you. So like. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Or maybe you ate too many of those damn cookies like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Really. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I'm just saying I was that kid. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I imagine there's some qualitative study out there that doesn't bring up trauma, but I can't even conceptualize what that would be. So Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): drama is going to come up. Whether or not you want it to. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah. Yeah. So you looked up, what is trauma? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: So what is trauma? Let's let's, I mean to remind everybody. We're not psychiatrists or or psychologists. We're not. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): No. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: We're not that kind of a doctor, but. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Correct. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: But trauma does come up in research. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It does, it does so according to the Dsm 5. For those who do not know the Dsm. And that's not part of their everyday vernacular that stands for the diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Health Conditions. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Technically mental health disorders. I've just changed that to health conditions because. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: It sounds. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Some people have a certain kind of feeling about a disorder versus a condition. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Right. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Just made it sound better for the record. You did make it. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Come on, Dsm, give us that language. Come on. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Be a sponsor. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So the Dsm is what all psychologists, therapists social workers have to. Psychiatrists, psychiatrists and psychologists are different. Have to use to understand what Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): conditions there are. Usually there are a series of criteria, and they'll say, if you've met condition, a criteria and condition. B criteria, then you have generalized anxiety, disorder, depression, or Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): whatever else there is, there are a lot of different mental health conditions. So we're not even gonna touch that. But in Ptsd or post traumatic stress disorder. They define trauma Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): because it's part of the name, right? So that's where this comes from in the Dsm 5, and in that they define it generally. And this definition comes from American Psychiatric Association, their 2024 website people who have experienced or witnessed a traumatic event, a series of events or circumstances an individual may experience. This is emotionally or physically harmful, or life threatening, and it may affect their mental, physical or social or spiritual well-being. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So this is generally how the Dsm defines trauma, and how a lot of mental health professionals will thereby define trauma, because that's kind of their Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Bible. It's their guide, it's their Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): straight line, it's their dictionary. It is how they understand trauma Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I feel like in social language. We hear it come up a ton and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): some people would agree with how it comes up in traditional language that are mental health workers, and some people will say, No, no, no, it's only how the Dsm defines it. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Right. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): How do you think about trauma, Dr. Tiffany? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I mean from somebody who has experienced trauma. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: which I mean, sometimes we get kind of personal on our podcast you know. So so I Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: recent, not recently, but have been told that I have Ptsd based off of things that happened in my younger life, and so that has played out in Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: my personal and my professional life, you know, I mean, even from having Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: being in toxic work environments and just feeling like, particularly as a black, queer woman, not having my voice be heard or being minimized. In a in a toxic place. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: it! Things like that come up for me. And so it becomes when I think of trauma. You know, it's Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know, it's Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: personally like related to to my own stuff. And on top of depression and and anxiety. And you know, Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: so it's, you know, there's and I'm looking at the definition like the historical trauma to it, you know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: and I think it's really hard. It was really hard, and still remains really hard for me to separate myself from my research, because we, as particularly as qualitative researchers. We are the research instrument, and I forget where I heard that from. I'm not going to take claim to that. But I forget where I've heard it from. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: But we're the research instrument. And so, you know, I think that's what has pushed me to do research on things that I'm obviously like interested in, but also Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: understanding where my pain has been, because it's in a sense it's almost like recovery, you know, because I'm hearing and listening to things that other people have experienced. So it becomes a part of my Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: my recovery. My Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): My grounding, using grounding techniques. My therapist would be so proud of me right now. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Using grounding techniques even after doing a trauma, informed interview, or even focusing on myself. That's how I look at trauma. How do you look at trauma? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, I think, Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): normally, when I'm thinking about trauma, I Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): try not to think about myself. I try to think about like I try to put on my academic brain because it's safer for me than my feeling brain and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): trauma comes up so often in everyday life, I think, and I think that Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it's 1 of those things I try to be really aware of for my students when they're approaching me, and like how it's either bringing up past trauma in the classroom or trauma in the rest of their life. Particularly, because Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): as a public health person. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I'm talking about things that have trauma connected to them, so freaking often right like it is just Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): part and parcel of life for me, I feel like, and even before I was Dr. Lizzie, and I was just Lizzie, right, and I was working in the nonprofit world. I was working in reproductive justice and with queer young people, and like. So I've been in this space where trauma is just Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): not only part of my personal life, but it is part of my professional life for so so long, and I honestly am not even sure how I would function in a career that didn't have trauma as part of it, right? Because it's been something that I've been sitting with for a long, long time and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): for me. It just is a reminder that people are so much more than what you can see, and people are dealing with a lot of stuff that they may or may not tell you about, and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): to just have a little bit of kindness. With other humans, because most people are dealing with Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): heavy stuff. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Right right? And especially we're coming Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: off of. And I know Covid isn't done. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: But but but still we're coming off of a pandemic. Yeah. So I mean, there's trauma Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: associated with the pandemic, you know. I mean, in addition to that lovely list, I said, that I have like I have a fear of leaving my house. How does that, you know, play out? You know it played out during during Covid. It's still playing out in my personal and my professional life, and you know I have to find ways to navigate Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: the world. You liked my nobody saw it but like, except for you, like you saw me go navigate. I kind of went like a little wave navigating Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: navigate society. And the other part is that we? I think, that Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: people like Simone Biles. I'm going to take a left turn here because she talked about her mental health Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: made it so. That talking about mental health is is Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: an everyday experience and people and people can be understanding. You know, not saying that Simone Biles is going to sponsor our. Podcast but I'm just saying, you know. I think it made it easier for people. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: To understand, you know. And I just personally, like I was like, Wow, she's really speaking her truth. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know, and I think that really allowed other people to speak their truth. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Absolutely. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah. Yeah. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: So again, I took a left turn. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I loved it. I was here for it. I was following you. And I know we didn't say this at the top, and we probably should have. But Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): for listeners, we want you to be safe in this episode. And if this isn't the episode for you right now, that's okay, don't worry, don't stew. Hit us up later or don't it's okay to not listen to every single one of our podcasts and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): take care of you. It's really important to take care of you both. And this episode isn't trying to dig into personal traumas, but it's trying to help you understand how to navigate traumas as they come up and research. And we want you to be safe. That's why we're doing this episode. And so that also means being safe with listening to it. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah, we should have said that at the top. But now we're saying it now. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, yeah, it's here. So how has trauma shown up for you in research? Dr. Tiffany. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Well, Dr. Lizzie. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So we don't usually use doctors to talk. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Don't you don't. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): What else? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Only until the phone. Thus my cell phone rings and I don't know the number. I'm like, this is Dr. Tiffany Quash. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I for me. I think it showed up in in 2 ways, and I'm I'm glad like Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: when we outlined this. You know, that those were the 2 things that I'm going to talk about like one, was my dissertation. And then, of course, our black, queer women study. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: It has come up, but I think Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: more so with my dissertation when I interviewed, was like 25 to 27 black women who discussed their swimming experience. Let it be at the professional level, or let it be at the collegiate level. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: A lot of the experiences from these women. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I could relate to when you're especially when you're the only black swimmer, you know. I mean, there's there's only a handful of us, you know, when you're the only black woman swimmer. There's only a handful of us, you know, Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: And and ironically, when I did my dissertation Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I mean, I I don't like using the word snowball sampling. I can never remember the other term that I used Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Previous. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Convenience. Thank you. I was like, what is it called convenience sampling with my dissertation, and Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I recognize later on, like most of these women if they didn't know me, they knew each other. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: And by I mean again, I wasn't a focus group. These were one-on-one interviews and Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: some of the things that Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: these women discussed with me. It's like, Wow, like I. I went through that and and I had to in my Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: dissertation notebook. You know, I had. I wrote like I understand this, or I felt this win, you know, and and it's really hard Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: being the only one Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: on the deck or in in public spaces. I mean, the reality is that black women in higher Ed is is a very, very low percentage. So Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know to be, and with a doctorate. So, knowing that and going through this study, it just kind of was like a parallel universe for me. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): No. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: And it just it. It didn't break me, but there were parts of me that were, I felt Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: were breaking, and then I healed, was able to heal myself through listening to their experiences, their lived experiences. And I think it was the same thing with the black, queer women Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: study because that I'm coming, you know, when we wrote that, or working on it when we were coding and and everything. With that I was coming off of Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: a very difficult situation with, and not going into details with, another faculty, with a faculty member. And so Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: It was really, it was really hard, you know, to separate myself from Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: writing something so academic like, and not like, but writing something that was academic and going through what I was going through. And you know. Now getting out and then being like, Okay, let's write about our pain like, that's exactly what we ended up doing. We were writing about our pain and trying to heal ourselves at the same time. And then, when we were doing this study, it was also Covid. So the tail end of Covid. So. Yeah, I mean, that's Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: that's where and my cheeks are. I can feel them. They're a little red now, but I mean. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: that's kind of where trauma came up for me. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, where did it come up for you? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah. Well, the 1st paper I want to talk about, I think it's come up, and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): almost all of my projects in some capacity in a big or small way, but the 2 biggest that really sit with me are one paper that I wrote in grad school, and it was Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): talking about when people are scared during sex. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Hmm. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And I was really kind of working on that Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): coding independently, and it was like part of a larger study like it was part of a larger like survey. Right? But we have this one question, have you ever been scared during sex? Yes or no? And then, if they had, we invited them to an open text box. Answer right? And I was doing all of the coding for the open text box answer Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and reading hundreds of different stories, and I would just Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): be so overwhelmed and feeling so many emotions, and I would have to go take a walk around campus. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And like. Just leave it at the desk and then come back, and then I would be like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I don't know how to focus on other work today. And normally, I was somebody who could stay 12 h and like my desk at grad school. I don't do that kind of work anymore burned me out. But, like at that point in my life, I was like, Oh, no! Let me just work for 12 h in a row, and then, you know, take one day off during the weekend or something, and be think I was completely fine. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): For all you grad students out there do what you have to do to get your degree. But seriously. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): you are human. At the end of the day. Yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and take breaks. Dear God, take breaks Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Breaks. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Anyway, and like I just. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it was so hard. And then I couldn't focus on anything else. And I would be like, Why can't I focus on anything else today? And like I couldn't figure out what it was for the longest time, and no one was really talking to us while we were in grad school about trauma and research, and like what the impact is on you as the researcher right. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And like we talked about like how to make your participants safe, and I got that messaging. But I didn't get messaging of how to make myself safe. And so that paper just was really really hard for me to do, and I couldn't like identify for myself why it was so hard to do, and it seems so obvious right now, right like just saying it out loud like Duh but I couldn't figure that out at the time I was doing it, and I just thought I should be able to push through. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And then my dissertation came. And there's a story I like to tell with my dissertation. Dr. Tiffany's heard me tell this before, but I'm gonna tell it again because I think it's a useful story. i 1 day I'm sitting, and this is at the height of God. It was in May of 2020, so remember, we were all on lockdown, and all of that was happening, and I hadn't seen anyone in like 2 months in person. And Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It was just me and my cat and my little tiny, glorified studio apartment that I could afford during grad school. And one day I'm sitting there, and I'm like, I can't. I don't know why I can't see my computer screen. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and I Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): clean off my glasses, you know, very carefully, and even put on the liquid to clean them off, really? Well, you know, and still can't put them back on, still can't see. So I get out my computer screen cleaner and clean that off. And I still can't see. And I'm like what in the heck is going on, and then I feel my face, and I realize that it's soaking wet, so much so that, like my shirt is wet, and that like I was wearing a t-shirt or something, right? And I'm like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Oh, I've been dissociating so much that I didn't know I was crying, and like it was at that moment that I was like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I can't like. I don't know how to push through this right, and my dissertation was writing about queer people who have had abortion experiences, and so many of them have been sexually assaulted. And Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): you know the listeners. You know this already, like I identify as a queer person? You don't know, but I have experienced abortion. I've experienced sexual assaults, and, like all of that, was just so overwhelming for me without having my normal support systems around me, right? Because we were at a distance and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): not being able to see people in person, was so freaking hard, right? And it was just. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It was overwhelming in every single way, and it was I have to finish this for a deadline. And how do you do that? And you just push through. And then you have years of intensive therapy. After that, because everything feels broken and wrong and sitting down to do. Research is so much harder because you were ignoring it at that time, and you weren't dealing with your care. At least I wasn't. And I think. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): after all, of that, we both became really, really passionate about how do you take care of yourself as a researcher when you're doing this or your research team and not hurting yourselves to get a product out because we both hurt ourselves pretty deeply. And trying to do that. And. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): dear listener, we don't want that to happen to you. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: -M, no, no, no, I mean the world of like. It's really amazing when you find a good therapist. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: No, I know. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, it makes all the difference. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: It makes all the difference. And I mean I've had therapists for a long time. Different therapists. And what have you? I mean? They were great at that moment in time in my life. The one that I have now is absolutely amazing. Another black woman, which you know I had never had in the past. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know, and and you know she was able to understand my my experience in academia. So Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know, we talked about that and Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: some of the fears that I had. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: and how those fears were associated to my academic experience, and then some of those other fears of doing my dissertation and how to do my interviews. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I don't want to say correctly, and I'm doing air quotes wrong like right now, like correctly, but trying to trying to Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: help the people who were Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: the people who I was interviewing, making sure that their voices were heard correctly, you know, and and so Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: again, like finding a good therapist is so Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: so helpful, and I know it's so so expensive, like, you know. I mean Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: when you don't have the money, and you don't have the means, you know, and it's just Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: because I was definitely at that spot sometime in my life, you know, you know, and trying to find a good therapist or not being able to have a therapist, you know, or have have the ideal happy meds to make sure that I was stable. You know it was. It was just, really it was difficult. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: So doing these kind of interviews. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: for let it be for our district, for both of us, for our dissertation, or you know, as you talked about. You know your article, and then our Bqw. Study Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: it. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: It's been a journey. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It has. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I feel like that's a sticker. It was a journey. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): We went to Mordor. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Hey! Dan! Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I'm not sure that we actually managed to throw the one true ring into the lava pit, but you know we went to mortar. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Definitely didn't work. No, I mean so I mean, I guess you know Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you'll be your question. Oh, go ahead. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, yeah, like, I think you're absolutely right. I think you were just gonna ask it. But like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I think it's obvious why we need to care about this right? Because it really does have years, long consequences if we're not dealing with it at the time. So like when we get to. Where does it show up Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): in our research, like we said, we both learned about it for our participants in grad school. So Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): giving out talk lines is really useful if you don't know, or, like other, follow up resources. But if you don't know, there are talk lines for just about Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): anything like there are a lot of really good talk lines out there. So domestic violence network. The 988 number Trevor hotline. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): brain. So rape assaults. Incest is really good one. All options for pregnancy resources Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): need of for eating disorders. There are just a ton of them out there. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): That I think that are really helpful, that I think about and give out a lot in my own work, but also for the Bqw. Study, we gave out Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): some therapy resources that are lower cost and some online therapy ones. Do you remember the one we gave out for that. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I, you know what it escapes my mind. Now, I would have to go back to our email. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah. But like, if you look up online therapy, there are a lot of them that you can. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: And choose from. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Now, like back when we were doing the Bqw. There was one main one, but now I've seen Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): a whole bunch of different advertisements, or heard them on my podcast for so many different ones. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Journey. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Of them out there. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I think those are some really good things you can do for your participants, if you know, it might bring up trauma from the start in the 988 number. I cannot recommend that one enough. I give that out to my students. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): at least in 20% of my classes specific classes of like, Hey, we mentioned suicide today or depression. Or I know there's this thing going on on campus right now, like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): please take care of you and like, here's the number to use. Or here's a national trauma that's happening, and so give out this number right? Like, I'm constantly giving it out. So like, that's a really important one. But do you think another thing you can do is just give space for silence. Right? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): qualitative interviews are gonna bring up tears. They're gonna bring up laughter. They're gonna bring up Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): really big emotions. And we've talked about that on this, podcast before. You know, encourage those emotions. Tell people that they don't have to hide them. Really, genuinely, thank your participants for participating. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Do you have other things for participants that you think about. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I mean, not necessarily for the participants, but I definitely think, as the interviewer. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Oh! Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, like I was describing earlier with Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: like. So now I have a notebook that resembles a dissertation book. I think I've talked about it before. It's black, you know, when you get your actual dissertation, it comes in that black. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Book, and it's got your your name and the title of your dissertation written in gold. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: It looks kind of like a yearbook does kind of look Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: look like a year bug. So I heard this person that I met they were like, Oh, yeah, you know, to help Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: come like make my my dissertation come into fruition. I bought a notebook. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: a book. It's like an artist book with no lines in it, and that was my dissertation book, and I was like, that's a brilliant idea. So I went ahead and bought that like that artist like book. It was black Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: and Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I put a tile at the end of it, because behind behind it, because I didn't want to lose it, which I did lose it. At 1 point it was in the library. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Remember that. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: And yeah, it was just drama. I was like walking all over campus for this thing. But anyway, I would write Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: on the right side of the paper Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: like memos like how I was feeling throughout the interview! Oh, like that point was really a good point, like on my on the left hand side. You know I would write something, they were saying on the right hand side of the paper. It was like, Oh, this reminds me of Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Interviewer B or C. And this is how I'm feeling in this moment, you know, and then I would. After the interview, I would take a minute like not really a minute, like Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: a couple of like, maybe like, actually like 45 min between each interview. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: To just calm myself, use my grounding techniques. Use Cbt and Ebt, or whatever. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, yeah. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: That's something else but Cbt, and just trying to Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: get back to base level for me. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know, because, you know, you can't go into an interview, or at least I can't go into an interview sobbing, you know. I mean, that's that is just going to carry on into your next interview. I, personally don't like doing interviews back to back. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): No, no. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Not. It's not healthy. It's not, you know. I feel like in grad school. It's like this, Rush, you know, like you have to do this here and now, here and now, you know, whereas I, as I've gotten older Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: to do doing the interviews, it's like, Okay. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I need. I need a day to recuperate. You know. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, I actually had a really good mentor for my 1st qualitative research study. That said Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): always block at least a half hour between your interviews, and I have learned myself. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I need at least one to 2 h between interviews, because I just Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): emotions of other people. I'm like a little empathy sponge. And like, I just really need to separate that out. But I've also learned over the years that even though I can be extroverted with people I really like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I need some recovery time from really Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): a lot of human interactions. And so like, I need some space after that, I didn't know that about myself in my twenties, or even my early thirties. But I do now, and like it's really important to give myself like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And I do this when I teach to like an hour after each classes, I just block off on my calendar is I cannot be scheduled. I cannot talk to students. I just need time to sit in my office by myself, with the door closed before I can even say like, Hey, how is it going to another human being, because, like my energy, is just depleted, and I need to have my little dump chocolate. And I need to be happy right like and like, it's just listen to an album that I really like like, sit down and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): put in like answer emails, or whatever that is just really low energy for me. And like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it's not that I can't work. It's just that I need space, and like that really helps refuel me so that I can be ready for more interactions later. And interviews are the same it's a lot of emotion. And even if it's not an emotional topic, it's gonna be emotion. And reading data, is that way for me, too. And so like I used to think like, Oh, I can just code for an entire day. Nope, now I schedule like an hour block of coding, and then I have to Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): get up and do something physical, because my body knows where that emotion is, and I can usually, if I walk, or something, or I do, yoga? Then I just feel so much more ready to engage with the world. And Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I think that's helpful, right like, you know what you need, and I don't know. It's gonna be different for everyone. But those are some strategies I've learned. Are there other strategies you can think of, Doctor. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Besides therapy. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, I think, like for me, I I love the water, of course. Of course, everybody's gonna be like, Oh, duh, she's gonna say that. But like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): No, but really. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: You know, when I get into the water. So Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: it's it's calming for me, you know, and you know I do a couple of laps. And then it's you know, it's like, Okay, I got this, you know. My, my spouse always tells me she's like. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know. Did you go to the pool today. She's like, because I can tell when you haven't gone to the pool. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Are you? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I know you better than you know yourself. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But sometimes you just can't tell, because you're all up in your emotions. And you can't like actually understand what you're feeling. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: No, no, and you know what the funny part is is that I would spend. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I could spend a long period of time in the pool. And I'm actually, I'm still thinking about what is going on with whatever I'm writing, and by the time I get out of the pool I'm like Whoa! I've got another idea like how this can go in a different direction or the direction that I need it to go. So that was that was healthy. I can't even talk healthy for me. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I think Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know, I think both of us can vouch for the fact that it's really important to eat and and drink, and I'm not talking about alcohol. I'm talking about water or things to hydrate yourself. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know, because there were times. I mean. Everybody knows that I do not cook. My wife cooks Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: and Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I think there was a period of time where I just couldn't eat, because, you know it was just. It was I was carrying this burden of completing the dissertation or the Ptsd I had gone through, or I'm still going through. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: so that was really important. Now, the now the big issue is Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: like sleep, having a solid sleep schedule like not being on my screen Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: my cell phone before I go to bed. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Absolutely. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: And so it's so important to take care of yourself while you're engaging. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Trauma informed interviews. You know you have to like. You're the best advocate that's going to be, for you is yourself Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: like you have to. You have to show up for yourself. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): 100%. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, I didn't know about that until you know grad school, because I was like relying on everybody else, you know, like, like you have to fill like what is it called? You? Put your mask on 1st when you're on an airplane like I had to learn how to do that, and I think again I'm gonna take another left. I think black women particularly have had to put on everybody else's mask before they put on their own mask. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Right, right, you know well, and it's 1 of those things that Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I have learned through years and years of therapy. So you know, dear listener, learn from our expensive therapy bills like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I was socialized not only through my parents, but also through religion. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Hmm. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): That, like I was taught to care for everyone else, and if I was caring about myself I was being selfish and like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Dear listener, you're not being selfish for taking care of yourself. You are giving yourself what you need to help everyone else. And that's why, on airplanes, they say. Put your mask on first, st because you can't put on a mask for somebody else. If you're passed out on the floor, you're just another victim. Then, like. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: - Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Be a survivor. Put your mask on, and then help other people like it is not selfish, it is not bad. Do not be guilty about that. Do not listen to those lessons that you're not worth enough. You are worth enough. And like you can't get that research out that is needed for your community. If you Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): do not have food in your belly, if you are not eating those vegetables, if you are not sleeping enough hours, and think about when you pull those all nighters in undergrad, and then you couldn't remember a single answer for the exam like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): that. It's not helping anyone to overdo for yourself, like you have to take time off and like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it sounds really stupid and simple, but really spend a night out with your friends and like, go get a drink, or go like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): dancing, have nachos, or go do a dance party? Yeah, or go yell about sports? I don't know like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): go watch a silly fever dream ballet, you know, like, whatever it is you need to do, go scream about defying gravity in the theater. I don't know. Like. Go get your hair dyed like, do something that makes you feel happy and like that will give you enough energy to be able Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): to like. Deal with the tears and the emotions of your participants. And be able to write a paper that is so needed out in the world. But if you're not doing Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): that real self care. And we're not just talking about, you know, spending a thousand dollars because capitalism tells you to on getting a massage or whatever like. But maybe your body really needs that because you have chronic pain, or maybe having Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): whatever right like, do what you need to do. Everyone is a little bit different. I know one of the things that's really good self care for me is doing the dishes and like sitting and really getting like the house cleaner and area cleaned in my office. And like I get a little cluttery because that's how my neuro spiciness works. But if I really set some time aside to clean. They'll be like, okay. Now, I have energy to give other people, because I gave some to myself. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): so like whatever that is. But I think Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): doing for yourself is really important. And then when you're leading a research team because a lot of us are with a Phd, right? Or even if you're in doctor Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): your school to get that Phd, you're learning how to lead a research team. So what do we do for our research teams. How do we support them? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: What do you think? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I? You know, I think, having Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: one-on-one check-ins and having group check-ins. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Important, you know. I think. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: That to be very honest with you, I I think that grad school failed us both. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I'm not. We're not bashing where we went. We're just saying that sometimes grads, you know, you can like hindsight, you know. I think it failed us both in having Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: people who Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: could, as a collective like as a research team being like, Hey, everybody, how are you doing? And then, being like so, Tiffany, I noticed you were getting really emotional about maybe not emotional. But you were upset about something like talking about this like, can you tell me what it's about, you know, or how can we connect or something, I think Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: and both of us had male advisors. I don't know if it's a gender thing. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Damn. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I think it might be, I think, at least partly. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, yeah, I mean. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I, you know. And both of us, you know, we had another woman who was like she was on my Dissertation Committee, and you actually introduced her to me, and we've had Dr. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Lucy again. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, yeah, I was just like, all of a sudden, I blanked Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): on this. Podcast. So go listen back to that episode if you haven't, because she is the best human. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: The best. Yeah, just Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: a. She's just gonna a plus plus plus. Plus. But I think when she was on my dissertation committee, it was more of. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Okay, Tiffany, like you're doing this, this and this. How are you taking care of yourself? How are you Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: navigating these interviews? You know. I mean it was, it was very, very different, you know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: so yeah, I think when it comes to research teams, I do like the approach of the team coming together, and then also having that individual check-in time, you know, and it doesn't have to be long. It doesn't have to be like Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: an hour. It could just easily be like 5, 10 min conversation. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: You know. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Well, in one of the things I do with my student researchers is when I'm having those one on one check ins if they have disclosed to me at some point in the past that they go to therapy. I say, hey, are you still going regularly to your therapy sessions? Or if I know they have, like a pet, or a child, or Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): a friend that like doesn't live with them, but is really important to them. I'll say, Hey, have you checked in with so and so lately, or like hey! Have you gone on a walk with your dog lately, like whatever and like, or have you had an appointment with your therapist recently? And they'll say like, Oh, no, you know I've kind of been letting that slack for a while, and I'll say, you know. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it seems like things are kind of intense right now. Maybe that might help you know, like I'm not trying to tell you how to live your life, but like, I want you to know that I care about you, not just as somebody who's producing product for me, but also as a real live human being. And I don't want this to come up for years into your. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Future. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So like, I really want you to be taking care of yourself right now. And if that means you don't get this project to me by date X, that we talked about like, let's delay that for another week, so that you can take this week to take care of yourself. Yeah. And like it's, it's not hard to do that right. It's just seeing them as a real life human being, and not just as a machine that produces for you. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah. Yeah. And I think sometimes, particularly at r 1 s. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know, it's a research one, institutions they want you to produce. Produce, you know, because that's what they're there for. That's what faculty are there for? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: whereas, like, you know, I'm at a teaching institution right now, that's Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: trying to be an r. 1, you know, or and it's. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: You know, having said that, it's, you know, I think, the focus, you know, it is on the students, and it is thinking about the product that they will assist you with. You know, it's definitely a little. It's a little different, you know. The feeling is more. I don't want to say touchy-feely, but it's a little bit more. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: There's more empathy. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know, and connecting students with faculty, and not saying that our r. 1 didn't do that, I think it's just different. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I am Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): at a research 1st institution right now. But like, I take that time with my students, because. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): like. I tell them like this isn't Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): well, hey? I have that luxury because I'm not. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I'm not a research priority faculty member. I'm a teaching priority faculty member. So I have that luxury. But I think even when you are research priority. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): you know, hire an extra ta and or an Ra, and then you can treat everyone like a little bit safer, or split that job into 2 parts. So maybe you're giving them each less hours. But then you have 2. So if one really has life come up to them in the middle of the semester, right? Like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I have a student right now who? Well, I have a lot of students who have experienced parent death this semester and like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I know, I know, and so like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): like I've said to every single one of them like, let's give you an incomplete let's pick back up next semester. Let's work on this, and let's, you know, like school is your last priority right now, and it should Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): beam right like you have more important things in your world, and I think Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): that when we can have that little bit of empathy with our research team and teach them how to take care of themselves. We're giving themselves permission to like, not have the same toxic lessons that we've learned from those higher ed institutions, or just social norms for workplace or whatever it is. And so like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): let your employees or your research team be human. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Very. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Is the easiest way I can say that. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree. I completely agree. So one of the questions on our sheet here is like, How do you know if it's showing up like trauma. How do you know if trauma is showing up. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): That's a really good question. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And for me sometimes I don't know, for 6 months later I won't realize it. I? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And it's funny that I say that because my therapist tells me all the time she's like you're one of the most introspective clients I have, and I laugh sometimes when I'm like, Yeah, but sometimes I don't notice for months, and she goes, yep, most people are worse than you are, and I'm like. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Oh! Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Okay. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): so like, I'll know, because I will like I'm a to do list, kind of person. And so like, I will make my to do list usually on like Fridays for the next week of work, right? And like, what do I need to get through the next week, or whatever Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): sometimes I don't make them until the day of, but I make my to do list, and if there's 1 item on my to do list for like 2 weeks that I just keep ignoring and not doing. I'm like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Hmm, yeah, everything else on my to do list done. But this one thing. Why am I avoiding that? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): That's something, then, that I need to talk about, or sometimes I'll notice, like I'll get home from work, and I will look at my cat and be like, why are you crying right now? It's like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): like you have your food, you have your water, you have your litter box clean. Why are you yelling at me? And I'm like, Oh, she just wants petting like. Why did I need to yell about that like? Why am I having such a big emotion right now and then, I'm like, Oh. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Oh, trauma! Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): up. And I am like outletting that. And like to the one person. I feel safe out loud in that, too, right or like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Sometimes it'll be in my car on the drive home, and I'll be like, why are you such a bad driver and like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and I'm like, why am I screaming at somebody? They did a normal behavior, and like. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: - Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): That's a time that I know or I'll know, like sometimes, like, I'll just get digestional issues and like, Why am I getting digestional issues. Oh, because I've been Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): eating, you know, girl dinner for the last 2 weeks and not actually feeding myself right? Or Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I'll start waking up and having insomnia in the middle of the night. That's another good trigger for me, or I'll start getting more headaches. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Or sometimes one of my friends will say to me like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it seems being a little bit more extra lately, like, what's going on with you. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Oh, huh! Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I don't know Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): a good question. Let me think about that for a while, usually pretty intuitive, and I know when those things are coming up for me, but sometimes Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): we all just have times when we just can't see it. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): What about you? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I for me. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I think Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: trauma comes up when I'm like. All of a sudden I get a little. Let me back up. I get a little Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: manic, because and Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: all of a sudden I want to do something I'm like. Oh, so right now I would show you. Actually, I'll show you. I don't know how to explain it to our listeners, but I started a blanket. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: so I started my blanket, and the blanket Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: is not done. I don't expect it to be done, but I just was really Gung ho! About this blanket and. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Now I'm just like I don't want to finish it, you know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I you know I know trauma showed up. So that's 1 thing, and then on the opposite the opposite side of that is Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: like. If I'm out with my wife, cause I don't leave my house unless my wife leaves the house with me. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: If there is somebody that has the characteristics of the person who Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: has traumatized me all my life, like Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: with my associated with my Ptsd. Like that freaks me out, you know, and so I kind of get a little prickly like on my arms, and then, like the hairs on my neck. Get a little, you know, and I start hyperventilating. And of course it's what is wrong with you, you know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: And the last I think the last part of it is when Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: We watch the Evening News with Dave and Muir. So we're ABC people, and and we're watching. And there's this segment called made in America. And it's like, you know, pretty much like anybody who's been doing products in America. It's like a good feel Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: kind of segment, and I start crying, and Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I mean I can't stop crying, you know, and I don't know what it is. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I don't know. I mean yes, it's a good, touchy-feely segment, but all of a sudden I'm just like Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: crying, and it won't stop, you know. Now both of us have seen wicked. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): All right. Now, listen. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Movie. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Course it's supposed to be a cry fest, of course, but I wasn't emotionally ready to be crying from scene one until the end. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know, and so I'm sitting there like trying to keep my tears and my myself like calm. And I'm just like. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know, like Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: nothing the whole time, and just, you know, and it just was so so much, you know, and and so to me. That's how it shows up is like these unexpected cry fests the Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: incomplete projects that I'll be working on Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: And then the you know I get afraid. I become afraid. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: You know like, is that person really Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: part of team tiff, or or are they really cheering me on, or are they not cheering me on Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: So yeah, that's I just divulged a whole lot. There. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, you did thank you for sharing. I think Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): other things I know, like I have one friend, and she will not mind me saying this, but she watches Buffy anytime like she's really intense about emotions, and she'll just be like if I ever tell you I've gone on a binge of buffy like. Let me know that like remind me of this conversation, and that something's going on with my mental health, right? Or like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): everyone has something, though, but like, know yourself, know your friends, and like know when to ask like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Hey, it sounds like something, maybe is coming up for you right? And so like, I think when Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): once we recognize that that trauma is coming up. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): what do we need to do to deal with it, to sit with it. Like, do we need to take a break? Ask for an extension on a paper or a grant Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): ahead of time ahead of time? Yeah. Yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Ahead of time, absolutely ahead of time. Solid. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Teacher, advice for you right there. But Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You know, like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): ask for that extension if you start to notice it coming up. And you're like, Okay, no, I still have a month left on this, but there is just no way I can get this done, and like. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: No. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): For that like for grace period, or whatever use your support systems right like. You and I, Dr. Tiffany, we talk to each other like every single day of our dissertation, because that was the only way we could get through that right like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and sometimes it was laughter, sometimes it was crying. Sometimes it was anything and everything in between, but like that was how. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Model through that. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I mean honestly like I could not Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): have gotten through that without you. There's no way. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Same. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Same here. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, therapy. Sometimes I'll say to my therapist like, Hey, I need an emergency session, because life is too much right now, and. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): That's what we do, because things are coming up, and I can't deal with them. On my own. And that's okay. It's not bad to admit that it's a normal human thing to admit that right? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I know a lot of people, a lot of the Tiktokers that I follow. Is that how you say that, tiktokers? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): We're gonna say it, though. We're gonna make it. We're gonna make it a new word tick tockers. There you go Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): are talking about the shadow work. So if you've never done shadow work essentially the easiest way I can say, this is Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): when you start noticing that. So like for me, one of my biggest triggers is avoidance, and like I'll just avoid something that I don't want to do, because it's bringing up too many emotions, is like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): saying, Thank you to that part of yourself that is avoiding that. And that seems like counter. But sometimes, when you acknowledge that and you're like, thank you for protecting me. You're doing a really great job. Then it allows you to like, actually sit in and do that hard thing that you were avoiding doing, or whatever your trigger is. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I would recommend not doing that without therapy or without some good mental health guidance. Because it can backfire on you, but like it can also be really, really therapeutic to do that. So like highly recommend that. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I used to be a really good journaler. I'm not as good of a journaler anymore, but that can be really helpful and cathartic to sit in. Journal. One of my favorite things to do when I'm getting really intense about things is I will Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): play one of my favorite albums in the kitchen while I'm cooking or baking something, and I will just take lots of dance breaks, and that makes me really happy. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I need to see these dance breaks. I don't think I've seen a dance break by Lizzie. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): They're very silly. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I mean you're I mean, you're bringing up so many Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: things that I can resonate with, you know, like obviously therapy Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I think, for so long I had masked, masked Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: everything so masking pretty much means like your face, like you hide everything from what you're really feeling. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: and so I think I have become a pro at it. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Until grad school broke me. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: But Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Same. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, I just that's all I did, you know. Now, with my therapist, you know we are. We're working on this thing where? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know, when it comes to interacting with some people Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: like not being reactive. And I'm I'm just using that word for myself, but not being reactive, like learning how to be. She says a gray rock. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know, and just being like, just just try to like, be a gray rock and just know that you're gonna be okay. You're in safe hands. But. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: What's needed in this moment is to not have any emotions. Don't let that. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Person, get. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Used to be a great rock. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I love that. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, she's I love my therapist, you know. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Is such a good like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I have a there's a meditation that I used to do that's like you're a rock in the sea, and, like all of this trauma is coming at you. But it's like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): but you're so sturdy because you're that rock and like, just let it wash past you, and you don't have to react to everything. You can just let the waves hit you and just be and I think that's really powerful, too, right? And like it's kind of that same idea that your therapist is saying. Just let it hit you and move on. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, cause I I definitely never got the be like a duck and like lives at the water. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: No, I know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I forget the name of the like. The analogy. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Paddling underneath. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: You know, like, let the let the water flow off of you like be a duck, or there's some like analogy with this, and I'm just like I can't. I can't be a duck on water right now. I just can't do that like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): No. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I'm not. I'm not a fan, but I mean I you know, I think for me it's Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I'm trying to also learn better how to how to be a better advocate for myself. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: You know, and and sometimes that is very difficult to do, especially in academic settings. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, you know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: or and or other professional settings like being an advocate for yourself can be very, very difficult. But just know that, you know, even though Dr. Lizzie and I are not therapists, and we're not. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: you know, we're not that kind of doctor. But you know, you can always come back and listen to this podcast. And be like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You sure can. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Hey, like this is in trauma, informed research. And this is how I can get past and through it. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You know, you know, and one of the last things I will say on this is Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): but one of the things that has always really helped me is going back to my community. So like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): when I get really stressed out about some of the work that I'm Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): where the trauma that I'm you know, secondhand, experiencing or reliving through reading the data, or doing interviews, or whatever is like. If I go and volunteer with like queer youth, I feel so much better and like it's Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): not even doing anything all that deep right, like going out and sorting like the trans clothes that have been donated or something. And you're like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): even if it's not interacting with them directly, it like feels just better because you're doing something right and like research so often feels so disconnected from the communities you're trying to help. So sometimes that can be really helpful. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I think. Yeah. Any last words of wisdom. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I mean have a for me. It's like I have something I call team tiff like my. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: So team tiff is, you know, they're my my medical practitioners or my friends, you know I used to. I don't have it anymore. But I used to have this piece of paper that Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: had like these are the people they go to for Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: like medical attention. I would have their names, and these are the people that I know I can trust have their names, you know, and it was kind of like a scale, a scale of. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Okay. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Like, how serious is it on a 1 to 5 scale, like, if it's a 5, which means you're going to want to get out of dodge, you know, like these, you need to contact your medical professional. If it's like a 1 or a 2 like, it's still trauma. But you can Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: like contact your closest friend and be like, okay, this is what I'm going through, you know. There, that's how I used to do things, you know, you know. So you figure out whatever can work for you. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I love that. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, it was easy to like I needed pictures, and I needed the words to be associated with what I was, you know, trying to illustrate like I. This is how I'm feeling, because I never had the words for it. But. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I can. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Draw it out, you know, so. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Hmm. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah. But isn't it so powerful like drawing or making something as often what you need when you're in that kind of distress, because your brain is not working in the same way. It's just straight up. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It's like. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yes. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): No, it is. It is, though, right and like, Hey. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I have told many participants that are students, that of like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): your brain doesn't work the same when it is in trauma. It like there have been many studies that have demonstrated that it straight up does not work the same. So if you have something really simple that you can remember to do like one of my things is like, Okay, if I'm having a panic attack, if I can hold an ice cube, or if I can get my hands on chocolate or a sour patch kit, or something like that, and just hold it on my mouth for a long time, and then you have something to focus on. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): That's all of those tricks are like focus on something very, very simple, and that can help pull you out of it and like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): it's not that it makes everything magically better. It's not that. It means that it's cured everything, but it's gotten you to a point where you can then look at one of those charts and go, okay, who do I contact right now? Or what do I need right now. And it helps remind you that you have really basic needs, that you can meet. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, yeah, it's yeah. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Well, folks, we have covered a lot of deep stuff today. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): A lot. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, you can. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Please take care of yourselves. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, for something else. But like, yeah, please, definitely, please take care of yourself, like I mean. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I think, that this episode is probably one of our more intense episodes. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: You know, because it's it's what's needed. I mean. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Like. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: We said before, like, I don't think neither of us got that kind of support grad school. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): No, I do have one last question for you, though, and I don't have this on the script, but it just came to me. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Why should we do this work if it's so hard and traumatic to do. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: That's a very good question. I think Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I think I do this work because it's healing. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Hmm. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: You know, I'm not saying that I'm gonna go around and be like the healer. But. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): But I. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Think in some ways it's it's healing for me. It's nice. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Can you. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: That I'm not alone. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Because, you know, when we're particularly in academia, we were in our own little bubble. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I think you know I don't. I think that you and I wouldn't have gotten as close as we did. I mean, if it hadn't been for Trump. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): That's right. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): That's right. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: I mean. I have the memory of our days of drinking wine, you know, and. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: But I mean it just. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: That's the reason why I do it. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: You know. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Even putting together the interview guide. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, you know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: You can't just put words on a page like you have to think about what you're putting on a page on a Guide on an interview guide to help not just you, but to help the interviewer interviewee understand the direction you're going. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Exactly. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Oh, yeah. Why do you do it? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I I think similar reasons, and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): with every single study, qualitative study. If I've ever done. And I think I've said this on this podcast before, like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): participants will say, Thank you so much for doing this work. This study was really, really healing, or it was really powerful for me to connect Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): different pieces of my identity, and you saw me as a whole being when everyone else saw me as just my race or just my sexual identity or just my gender identity. And because of these questions, you've seen my full self. And Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): like, so it's healing for us as the researchers. And it's healing for our participants. And then it's healing for the people who read that research or get to hear it at a conference. And I think Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): we make the world just the teeniest, tiniest smidgen better by helping Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): people see full intersectional human beings lives, and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I don't expect it to radically change anything. But I think it makes things just a little bit better. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, yeah, well, I appreciate you, my friend. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Oh, I so appreciate you! Thank you for this conversation in this hard episode. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: Yeah, no problem. Now for our listeners out there. Don't forget to email us at cotmpod@gmail.com. And don't forget to check out the website@www.cotnpod, dot com, Dr. Lizzie. It's a pleasure. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Dr. Tiffany. It is my favorite thing. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD: All right, beautiful people! Take care of yourself. Cheers. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Cheers.