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Hello and welcome back to coloring outside the memos. I am Dr. Lizzie. And I'm Dr. Tiffany. And today we are talking about the title of our podcast memos, how to do them, how some people use them, how some people don't, the multitude of ways, all of the different aspects of memoing and how to think outside of the memo, how to think more in depth about the memo. why it's such an important tool. So with all of that said, I'm going to hand it over to Dr. Tiffany, who is walking us through this. Can you tell us a little bit more about what we are talking about today, Dr. Tiffany? Dr. Lizzie, are you ready for today? Are you, is everybody, are you ready for today? I mean, I am so excited with my backpack. I've got my water. I have got some snacks. I am so here for this. All right. So come on siblings and quibblings and all those nibblings out there, let's go on this journey. So as Dr. Lizzie said, we are talking about memo-ing today and what it means to memo, why we should memo and the application of memo-ing in our work. And I think it's really gonna be fun to start off with like that definition. I know, oh, definitions and make me kind of like squirm but it's really important, especially in our line of work. So we're gonna start with a definition from Schar's Man. Shar-Sharmaz, excuse me, a 2006 definition in which Bhattacharya cites Shar-Sharmaz. And don't worry, I'm seeing all these names and you're like, what in the world is Dr. Tiffany talking about? Do not worry, we will put these names and their titles of the books and all of our references in the show notes. So again, in the show notes, in the show notes, in the show notes. But memo-ing. The way that Sharma really addresses memos is that by advocating for memo writing, where memos are space holders, space holders, space holders for documenting the researcher's thoughts, negotiations, interpretations, hunches, and so on. And unless you want to say in my mind, space holders or space holders, hey. I mean, it's definitely a spaceholder. So just kind of think about when you're doing that interview, what it really means, what's going on with you, like kind of checking in with yourself in that moment. Now it's gonna be really important. Again, we're gonna go back to Sharmaz because Jennifer Esposito and Venus Evans Winters go and again, cite Sharmaz. We're just Sharmaz, Sharmaz. Where are you? Okay. And Sharmaz says, catch your thoughts. I just kind of want to, you know what, statue Lizzie. Pause there. Catch your thoughts. Catch your thoughts. So much better than catch your dreams. Catch your thoughts. I love that. Like, I feel like I see it now with our little backpack on. I feel like I see us with butterfly nets. running around our mind landscape, trying to catch all of these thoughts and be like, okay, let me hold them here before they float away. Like butterflies do because you and I, Dr. Tiffany, have had a lot of conversations about this. I don't know about how relatable it is outside of us, but I think it is relatable that like, you're in the middle of something, you have this brilliant like 2 a.m. thought come to you. And you're like, Oh, I'll remember it later. And then the next day you're doing sitting down to write and you're like, what the hell was that beautiful thought that I had? Go out and catch your thoughts. That's your thoughts. Put them in a memo. I love it. You know, I might actually get that tattooed somewhere. I think I've got space on my left arm. So that'd be a friendship tattoo. I love it. Oh, totally. It can be a friendship tattoo. And somebody asks, what does that mean? You're like, Shama's. So, so much into our podcast. If you're listening to the podcast, I just have to say, catch your thoughts. I mean, it could very well be my next tattoo. I mean, my right arm is already declared, but my left arm, who knows by the time this episode comes out, you might already have it. I might have it. I mean, last time it happened. So, hey, so catch your thoughts. Dr. Lizzie, do you want to read the rest of that? Oh, I would adore reading the rest of this. capture the comparisons and connections you make and crystallize questions and directions for you to pursue. Through conversing with yourself while memo writing, new ideas and insights arise during the act of writing. Putting things down on paper makes the work concrete and manageable and exciting. I'm just so, now it's even, I'm gonna repeat the same word over exciting. So now what's in my brain is this crystal and catch your thoughts in it. So I have a feeling that is the new tattoo that's gonna go on my left, somewhere on my left arm. So I am such a big fan of this. I love it so much. It's like a prism. It's gonna be a prism. It's perfect. Like a rainbow shooting out of it. A rainbow shooting out. So, I mean, if everybody thinks that we have completely like just said, what are we talking about? We are still talking about memo-ing, trust me, because this is exactly what happens when you are in that moment, when you are talking to your participant and all of these thoughts are coming, I don't know, I don't wanna say at you, but you're growing in that moment with your participant. And I don't even, I feel like I'm lost for words, but. It's just a beautiful experience. The word that I did see from the literature was emerging. And yes, right? Yes. So here are emerging themes. And it's not that the themes are emerging, but that these are the words and the lived experiences of the participants. And you've got these memos. Oh, wait, hold on. I'm getting ready to go down this path. This coding path. I am so here for it. Are you ready? Take me there. So here we go. So some people use this term memos as research journals, while other use as analytical or analytic memos or reflective memos. Basically you're capturing your thoughts about data as you press forward to develop larger arguments. Now this is what Jennifer Esposito. and Venus Evans Winters talk about in their 2022 text memo, and I'm going to keep quoting them. If you get this text, it's on page 139, people. If you get this text, it's on page 139. Memoing is one way you can write to encourage deeper reflection on your data. Memos do not have to follow academic conventions. This is one of the reasons why we love qualitative research. It does not follow academic conventions. It just doesn't. Wait, wait, wait. Would you say that it's an act of decolonizing research to not follow academic conventions? Oh, yes, it is. Yes, it is. And as you said that, I am looking at my new book that I have recently purchased, Decolonizing Ethnography. Look it up, people. Look it up, but we will talk about this on another day. We will talk about it on another day. I, it's on my bookshelf. It's over there on my bookshelf. I can see the title, Decolonizing Ethnography, but we will talk about it on another day. Want to read that? Go on. So again, the beauty of what we're talking about, we're talking about memos. We're talking about how memos don't follow the academic conventions, but then now it's like, okay. How do we do this? And then number one, and how does this even go, how does memoing approach, how does it go with coding? So I'm gonna ask you. how can memoing assist with coding? Because I remember, and remember now, we're talking about memoing. We're not talking about coding, but I think it's really important for us to talk about the fact that memoing can lead to coding, which leads to those themes, which is what we're gonna end up writing about, okay? Yeah, and that's such a good question, and I'm so glad you raised it, because I think... For me, one of the key times I use memos is in the middle of coding or post coding in order to write. And for me, memo-ing is really a space where it is kind of catching all of those thoughts and saying like, okay, these are kind of similar, but also it seems like a lot of going to try to pull out some example because I think this only works with examples. So if we were to look at, let's say, we were doing research on, I don't know, my bookshelf is the only thing coming into my brain right now, who knows why. Maybe because we were just talking about books and we were to code all of the books and maybe we were gonna, I was gonna rearrange my book shelf to be one of those rainbow bookshelves, you know, where you're not organizing it by genre or anything else, but you're organizing it by color. And like listeners, I've got to tell you, this would drive me absolutely up the wall because I would never be able to find my books and I would be angry all the time, but I love the aesthetic of it. All right, we're back in. So if we were to do that, and maybe all of the red books are by white men, and then I would be like, ooh. This is a good memo, but I have to double check that right because just as I'm organizing an intrad I might notice and think this is. This seems to be the case, but i'm not entirely sure so then once i've gotten all of them organized I would go through and I would say oh actually even though it initially seemed like that. that is not the case. And most of the white men are in dark green and most of the women of color are in blue. And like, maybe there's something we can say about that. Probably there's not, I don't know. I'm just pulling this out of my head, right? As an example, but this is the kind of thing I think about when I'm memo in and I'll write little notes to myself like that to go back and check upon as I'm doing further analysis because otherwise you'll lose it. And that might've been a really important understanding. You know, now that you've raised this question about bookshelves and books, I'm actually looking at my bookshelves. How are your books arranged? Your God, they are arranged by large genre and then sub genre. And then they are alphabetized within each of the sub genres. And then as new books come in. I either have to completely rearrange the entirety of all, like five of my bookshelves, or they stick on top for a while. And sometimes they go on to a separate shelf that there's a little extra space in. And then eventually I get really annoyed by all of the mismatched ones. And so then I have to reorganize. But when I reorganize my bookshelves, I literally pull off all of the books because otherwise they're not organized correctly by genre and subgenre and alphabetized. And that really fusses me. So. I really liked your example because if, excuse me, everybody, I think if I take a glance at my bookshelf right now, and I'm saying shelf specifically because my lovely wife has as strongly encouraged us me to move to everything being on my Kindle. So which is breaking breaks my heart. I'm never get your beauty in the beast moment. I you know what I will I secretly will. So, um, and when it happens. Yeah. But so I have, I have a whole section for qualitative research, right. And then, but within that section, I have women of color. On the top and then everybody else below. And then to Another side, it's then I have all my aquatic literature. So anything, so everybody who doesn't know, my background is in leisure behavior. So between leisure behavior and aquatic history and things of that nature, it's separated that way. So it's very similar. I really liked that idea of what you were saying before of creating these memos and then what that emotion brings up to you. And so for me, again, the qualitative research part Um, it brings me joy and seeing black women authors brings me joy. So they were on top and the other ones I'm like, they don't really bring me as much joy, but they're important to know. So I just kind of put them on the bottom. That's, that's how I arrange my, I love that. And like. I know you only have a small like book space compared to me, which, yeah, I mean, you've seen my living space and how many bookshelves I have compared to everything else that I own. It's, it's a lot of books, y'all. It's a lot of books. Everyone in my life who has ever helped me move has been like, why the blank do you have so many books? Um, because I have a lot of books. I want my beauty in the beast moment. And that's just what it is. But I love how you have yours arranged and that's so thoughtful. And it's so important to have those books that are the most meaningful in a central place where your eye is drawn to. So, I mean, if everybody thinks that we have completely gone off kilter on this, we have not, because it's really about what is it in that moment when you're doing that interview or when you're seeing that piece of art or... whatever you're doing that, but in your in that raw data, what emotions are being invoked in that moment. And I think that's really, really important. I mean, just as Dr. Lizzie was talking about her red books, you know, it's like, I went anger. That's what I was trying to evoke. So I'm excited. You got it. Definitely. So, I mean, I think when we ask, when we're asking that question of how can Memo-Ling assist with coding, this is exactly how it can assist with coding, is asking yourself what are the emotions behind what you just wrote. Now we're going to get back to this about the when and where and how and how to do all this. Okay. But Johnny Saldana. And again, I absolutely positively love Johnny Saldana. And Johnny Saldana cites Corbin and Strauss' 2015 text, Basics of Qualitative Research, and explains how memo writing is used and how micro and macro levels of analysis can be projected onto the data. Again, if you sit with that just a little bit. Maybe not a whole lot, because we're not really getting into coding. But I think it's really important to remember those emotions, those memos, that research, what we call them, research memos, reflective memos, researcher journal, what have you. It's going to be really, really important for you to use that information. Okay. So I guess what I'm hearing in this quote specifically, and what I think you're trying to raise is. that this is memo-ing is not only a way of staying organized, but it's also a way of foreshadowing where you think the data might go to. So whether that's at any stage of research, the memo can be used as a guide for what's coming next with the research. And it is something that helps us get to that next like point. So it's like, Think of it kind of like connecting the dots. Yeah, I was gonna go with a more elaborate example, but yes, like kind of like that rope. I don't know if y'all know a lot about steadfasting in dais, but when people used to steadfast, they would have to tie a rope between their house and their barn because with the blizzards, it would be so much that they couldn't, they literally couldn't see between the house and the barn. um out on the prairies and so you'd have to tie a rope so that you could find your way to the barn and I feel like this is what we're doing with Memo-ing. We're tying that rope so that we can find our way to the next stage of the research and it's helping us get there. It's not exactly laying out the perfect map. It's not exactly giving us the destination but it's helping us find like where those points will be that will get us there. I just love how you know so much about things that I just never would have thought about in a million years. I just love, I love this. I love this. That's family stories right there. That is family stories. We have pictures of the Steadfasters doing that. I love this. I absolutely positively love this. So for you, what are some key times for you to memo? I mean, is there a difference between memo-ing before, during, or after you're doing an interview or when you're... working with the raw data. And again, it's not that I want to refer to people as raw data, but I just wouldn't want to be mindful people are humans, people have experiences. But as we're moving through this, you know, what are some key moments or what are key times for you to memo? That's a good question. So I think my biggest Cody, or my biggest memo-ing is during coding and after coding, the immediate next step after coding before, like to get to analysis kind of, it's kind of like pre-analysis, but it's this, in order to figure out how I'm analyzing data, I make tons of little memos of, like the bookshelf example, right, is Oh, it seems like this is happening in the data or it seems like this is happening in the data or oh maybe I need to like figure out. If this demographic is really saying this more often or maybe I need to understand. Look at this code to understand this code or it's all sorts of these kinds of notes to myself to or to whoever else i'm doing research with of like listen I don't have capacity to run this secondary. tertiary analysis, but can you pull these different things and see if there are connections there? Cause I feel like there are. And so it's kind of pulling out like your gut instinct, but it's also relying on what you're looking at initially to say like, okay, we have to go back through it all again and figure it out. So it's a way of honing it in after you've coded to kind of like contain it all. But it's also sometimes happening simultaneously with the coding to say like, ooh. This code doesn't seem to work for me. Maybe we need to add this code or maybe we need to add this additional one, or maybe we need to do a member check on this because this doesn't seem like we got this transcribed quite right or whatever it might be. You know, it's so funny and we were talking about this before we started recording today's podcast, but how different we both memo. And again, one of the ways that I memo is, I tend to memo a lot heavy on the front and the front end meaning while I'm listening to the person and then also immediately after, sorry, I didn't mean to snap in people's ears. I just got so excited talking about this, but immediately after I would finish the interview. And so those are usually the two times when I memo. Now, if I wanted to memo later, which would mean that I would return back to the data at some other point, that would happen right before I would interact with my next participant because I don't wanna cloud my judgment. Now this is where I get overwhelmed. And so I know I remember when doing my dissertation I was just, I got into a point where I had interviews back to back to back to back to back. And I was like, oh my gosh, I've got a memo. Now listen, if there is anything that I have learned, space it. base it out. And I think I was doing two or three interviews in a week. And it was just not, it was not helpful. And you know, now, I mean, now I'm going back and I'm like, okay, I wonder what more there really is, because there's a lot more data that's there. I mean, memos I could write for from the data that I could write more papers from. I think I'm done after three, two or three. But the point being you know, I think it's really important to kind of think about your pace and when you are the, when are the key times for you to memo. So yeah. I love that. And I love that we think about memo-ing in different ways, but that it's one of those tools that is so important to the qualitative researcher because it is so unique and developing your style and figuring out what works for you is going to be different for everyone. Right? Like maybe for you, you think of my version of, um, memo-ing is like, well, that's just analysis goofball. And maybe you think of Dr. Tiffany's as just like, well, that's just interviewing. What are you talking about? Um, but for everyone, we think about them slightly differently. We, um, Dr. Tiffany and I had an instructor who taught us qualitative methods, who would always say like, memo-ing is something that you sit in your car and you do after you go out and do an interview, because this particular person's style of interviewing was always in person, and it was like day long. observations and interviews. And so it was really having to have a really thoughtful notebook full of details that you wanted to do immediately after you were done with that observation or you would lose everything. For another faculty member and friend of ours, the way she memos is doing a lot of notes throughout that whole research process, right, and thinking about that consistently. That comes from that anthropology ethnography lens of really being thoughtful and consistent with those memos. And for other qualitative researchers I've talked to, memo-ing is vastly different. Now, like if I was doing a discourse analysis, which at some point we'll talk to you all about, Memo-ing is what you do before you get to coding because that's such a different kind of thing. You do deep memo-ing that might for some people look like pre-coding. And it's like get leading you to what those codes will be. And then you do another set of deep memo-ing after you've gotten the coding to really understand that data even more. But the idea here is that qualitative data, like other kinds of data is you're going through it. Well, like all kinds of data, you're going through that data so many times that you know it forwards, backwards, sideways, and upside down. And somebody says something to you. Somebody says something to me about a project I did five years ago. I coded five years ago. And I'm like, oh yeah, that came from XYZ participant. And they're like, how do you know that? I'm like, well, it was obviously Blue Seal with a tutu. Um, and which legitimately was a suited him, somebody picked and I loved it so much and I talked about it all the time because I loved that participant. I loved them so much. And like. Yeah, like you remember those things because they stick out not just because of the pseudonyms, but because you know the data on that level that you remember it years later because you just know it. You live and breathe it. I think I have to admit that because of the project that you and Dr. Williams and I are doing, which we've talked about on this podcast briefly, I've tend to I've changed a little bit how I've memoed. So a little bit more heavy on the middle part than maybe on the front end and on the back end, back air quotes. And so it's been a little, it's been interesting. I think the beautiful part about qualitative research is that you as the researcher can kind of experiment and figure out like you get to wiggle in it. You know? You get to wiggle in it, you know? And you get to figure it out, you know? And just kind of see how it feels for you. If the first interview goes along and you're memo-ing either during or middle or after or what have you, and you're like, okay, this is what I like, how I did this, or this is what I didn't like, that's fine. That's completely fine. And I think particularly when... At least when I was a student, I always felt like I was doing something wrong. We are here to tell you that it's not about doing it right or wrong. It's about at least you're out there and you're doing the work. You're doing the work. And I think that's the thing is that we want to acknowledge you for doing that work. Okay. Work, work, work. Um, so before I go into Rihanna, I loved it. I was here for that. Um, but also, whoosh. Thank you for saying all of that. That was beautiful. And that's part of why I shared of like different ways that I know of people doing memo in two aside from just the two of us, just the two of us. Because there's we're gonna we're gonna go into our own little music repertoires like we do every episode. By the way, this episode is not supported by any of the artists. nor do we have the lyrics, nor is this copyright infringement for the record. Continue, Dr. Lizzie. We're not singing enough of it for it to be that or well enough for you to even recognize what songs we're singing. Anyway, so like, yeah, part of why I wanted to say like examples outside of us is not because you all care about those people or know those people, but To remind you that like however you use memo is going to be fine. And the other thing I want to pick up on that you were just saying, Dr. Tiffany, that I think is so, so important is that your style switched with a new team. And I think that's true for me as well that With every different kind of team I've worked on and different project I've worked on. I've done memo in different ways. I've done collaborative work in different ways because you have to because Everybody is different and we all think a little bit differently each project requires a new lens and a new angle and a new frame if you're doing things the exact same way you've always done them because that's the way you were taught. You know it's that old example of the roast in two different pans and it doesn't actually make sense and maybe i'll don't know that example, I can give it to you if you need it, but it's a lovely little parable and. You know, there sometimes are things that we do just don't actually make sense for our current situation. It's, you know, and I think this leads us into explaining why memo is so important. And again, we've talked about it, you know, or where do we hope that it takes us and again not to get too much into analysis because with this session, this episode is not about coding. It is not about coding but I think it's really important. that in Betta Charia's text, she goes on to discuss inductive analysis. And there, Betta Charia says that the process of inductive analysis assumes that the researcher is not starting the data analysis with any kind of pre-established testable hypothesis about the data. Inductive analysis is the process through which a qualitative researcher might look at all the raw data. Check them into small analytical units of meaning for further analysis, usually codes, clusters similar in analytical units and label them as categories and identify salient patterns after looking within and across the categories, usually called themes. It is during this point that you are journaling or memoing to reflect upon your experience. So it's just again. Just think about it. I need y'all to sit with it. We just hit you with a ton of stuff. Hit me with it. But I mean, but seriously, we just want you to understand that memo-ing is really, really important in your process. Esposito and Evans-Winters say that the important thing to remember is that you identify themes out of your own analytical thinking. And as you work... closely with your data, you begin to see patterns which inform the way you identify these teams. So again, if I just said that all backwards and you're like, wait, what, huh, what, I thought we weren't talking about themes, I thought we weren't talking about codes. Remember, you're memoing and out of your memos, you're going to have these codes and you're going to be clustering things together and you're going to have these themes and then you're going to be writing a beautiful paper that we're going to all see and publish and we get to celebrate with you. Okay, did y'all get all that? I sure did. You catch those thoughts. Catch those thoughts. Hmm. Yeah. Um, and it helps you get to that next point. It helps lead you to that next point in your research. There was this question that you asked earlier, or at least the statement that you might made earlier about notebooks. Can we talk about what we use? Cause what, what do you use when you're memoing? It depends on the stage of memo. Right? Like there are, I do like a hand, um, copy of an interview guide that I scribble all over while I'm doing interviews and like highlight and circle things and like all sorts of notes to myself. Um, but then when I'm in the coding phase and I'm doing memo and I like to use the QDA or the qualitative data analysis software. And then, once i'm done with the coding usually I don't go back and use the Q da for memos usually I write them on post it or I write them on. One of my favorites is something like this, which is just a classic piece of white printer paper that I scribble all over with a pencil and back and forth and have tons of little notes. And then I keep them all in one folder. I have a bunch of different research folders that are just, you know, this time of year, I go to the back to school sales and I buy a whole ton of those 10 cent folders and a whole bunch of computer paper. And I have bright colorful paper that I will buy every year too. And I will use those for my research notes and I will have each folder labeled like. BQW study or bathroom study or whatever. And then I like just a little paper with like pencil scratch notes and that really helps keep me organized. Because sometimes the QDAs and the Word documents and the Excel sheets cannot keep me organized and I cannot stand looking at computers for too long. Sometimes they give me headaches or migraines. So sometimes having those old school notes are really, really helpful for the way my brain works. What about you, Dr. Tiffany? I'm so glad you said that. I mean, not the migraine part, but I, sometimes I feel very distant from the data when it comes to using QDA. like just using the software. It just doesn't feel intimate. Not that I wanna start ballroom dancing with my data or anything like that. But I mean, I am definitely a notebook gal. Like I had this, and I know I've told this story to you. So I had this notebook that looks like your dissertation book. i'm suggested by somebody else that I know, so I got it and because I lose things I put a tile by the way tile is not sponsoring this episode of calling outside the memos. But I put a tile in the back of it and I lost my notebook. It was in the library, thank goodness, because I was able to find it, but you know that's I use I did use a note, I do use a notebook um. Now, when I use my notebook I separate, I draw a line to the far right side and my notes regarding the interview will go in the bigger portion of the paper and then my personal like my feelings like will go on that side on the smaller side that's like my memo. Excuse me my memo side and so it's really important for me to do to separate the paper that way. Now, just like you, I do have my interview guide out. So that's something we both have in common, and color pencils, and you know, anytime somebody says something that's like, you know, really, I don't know, vibrant, and I'm like, wow, you know, I'll like write it in gold or blue. Sometimes it has to be a dark blue, because I also have poor, poor vision. But you know, but it's definitely important for me to... to make sure that I address these items that have been talked about in the discussion. But I think it's really important for us to echo personal preference. It definitely depends on the project. Now. Typically, I would not have lost my notebook, but this is where we get into ethics. Now, we've spent a little bit of time talking about ethics or we'll be talking about ethics in the future, but I think it's really, really important to address the fact that, you know, when you're writing, particularly in a notebook, please use the pseudonyms. Please use the person's pseudonyms. Do not use their real name. Like make sure that there are no identifiable identifiers, identifiable identifiers out there for that person that you'd be like. Unless that notebook is stored in a locked cabinet or a locked office and it never ever leaves there. Like that is the rule. It cannot leave. If you are writing anything about your data down that is an anyway identifiable. And remember that identifiable can even just be enough of their quotes in a row for a really small population. You cannot have that out anywhere. You have to keep that under lock and key because that is and destroy it after a certain point per your IRB. So it was so me losing it out in the world very briefly in the library was very Um, it was very traumatizing, um, because I thought I was going to have to report myself. Um, so, you know, those are some key points when you think about tools, uh, figure out what your tools are, you know, I kind of want to know what your tools are that you're using out there when you're memoing. So, um, so yeah, share with us on, uh, on Twitter at, at C O T M underscore pod. Um, On Twitter, yes, our social media account i'm getting really excited Dr lizzie's giving me thumbs up because I actually remembered something by. coloring outside the memos underscore so co tm underscore m as in Mary underscore pod. So I think it's really important for you to like share with us what you what tools are using um so some of the key elements that I know that i'm looking for looking listening for when i'm memo wing is you know what. when I'm asking a question, I may ask another follow-up question, or maybe there's something that person said that was like, oh, like, you know, it's one of those hair raising moments, or your skin just kind of, you get prickly, and you're just, you want to get up out of your seat, and you want to be like, tell, yes, you just have this moment, you know, and you want to celebrate with the person, or maybe you want to cry with that person. I mean, emotions. Again, we were talking about evoking of emotions, EE, there you go, evoking of emotions. So it's just gonna be really, really important to think about what some of those elements are for you. What are some of your elements that you're looking for, Dr. Lizzie? Memo-ing? I kind of think of how Anne Lamont in Bird by Bird describes writing. I don't know if you know this quote or not, Dr. Tiffany, but have you read Bird by Bird? Okay, so Bird by Bird is literally my favorite book on writing and I have probably 15 books on writing. It is my favorite. It is not geared towards scientific writing, but it is one of the best books I have ever read on writing. And in it, she writes, It's somewhere in the middle of the book. I can't tell you the exact chapter right now, because I don't remember, but we'll make sure to put it in the show notes. And she writes, you write in should be like driving at night in a snow on a snowy road, your headlight show you two feet in front of you. They do not show you the entire way home. They don't show you your house at the end of the destination, but they show you two feet home and you can drive a hundred miles that way or a thousand miles that way. And I love that. And I think of that as like how I envision like the perfect memo. It shows you two feet in front of you. It doesn't show you that whole way home, but it helps you get to that next space. And that space helps you get to two more feet down the road and so on and so forth until you get to the end of your project or the end of your writing. And so I think memos are very much like that example, right? And that's in my perfect world, what they'll do to help me. And sometimes they work out perfectly. And sometimes, yeah, they don't work out so well, you know? Sometimes you don't end up using a lot of the memos that you write, but some of them, like I can look back at some of my old papers and go, oh, I remember when I had that idea and I put it into a memo and that changed the whole nature of my research or my paper or my writing or whatever. And like, sometimes I go back and reread things and it's like. oh, that is so brilliant. And that came from a memo. And so like, they'll help you get there. They aren't everything. They aren't, you know, they won't change every part of your project, but they can really make the difference. I just love how you say, you just said, how you just said that. I got tongue tied right there. But memos do make a difference. And it's really, really important to memo. Now, there is a difference between memo, memoing, and journaling. And I know you and I talked about that. And you were sharing with me that journaling is more personal and memoing is more research-focused, which totally, totally agree with you 110%. I think if I could have done anything differently, would have been to have journaled more while writing my dissertation. But the last thing I wanted to do lift my hand and start writing about my feelings. Like I couldn't process emotions at that point. It was like, I'm just doing what I have to do to get through this day. Did I eat? Did I take a shower? Did I brush my hair? I mean, for me, it was like putting it in a ponytail. Like, did I, what did I do? Two of the three, maybe one of the three, if it was a good day. Exactly. So, I mean, so I think it's just really important, you know, like for me, I, one of the other reasons, other things that I listen for, and you know, we've talked about this a little bit on the podcast before, in the past is people's voice. And I'm listening for whether or not that voice has gotten soft, really quiet. And they're really trying to explain something to me, or if they're getting really excited and he start talking really, really fast because they're trying to get through whatever it could be something really, really exciting, or it could be something very, very traumatic, you know, it's just, you know, it's like an ebb and a flow. We need to try Jeffersonian transcription at some point. You know what? That's next. That's next on the docket for me. That's next on the docket. Trust me. I think I would like Jeffersonian. I think I would make my life a little bit easier, to be honest with you. Listeners, if you don't know Jeffersonian transcription, look it up. It's going to be better to like do a quick Google. If that will include something in the show notes with a link to learning more about it. Ah, I can't wait until we. can't wait, can't wait, can't wait. So I mean, so yeah, so for me, it's definitely like listening, like using my ear, using my ear. As we wrap up, because we have just, we've given our all talking about memo-ing and I feel like we have taken you on this like really fast track journey, but at the same breath, like memo-ing is dirty, like you're in it with the data. I'm gonna ask you, Dr. Lizzie, what's your favorite part about memoing? I think it is... Like I'm still stuck on that catch your thoughts idea. That is just like both one of the best phrasings I've ever heard, but also like exactly what Memo-ing feels like to me. It's like capturing these stray thoughts and putting them somewhere concrete so that you can come back to them later because it's this acknowledgement that you can't do everything all at once. It's like when you set out to make a huge brunch for friends and you have like eight different things that you're making and you're having 20 people over to your house. I don't know. Maybe you all haven't done this before. I've done it a lot. Dr. Tiffany's been there. It's been a lot of fun, but if you're trying to do all of that and you have, you know, four hours to do it all, you have to be really clear on how you're doing each thing and you can't do it all at once or it'll just all explode in your face, right? So you have to be really thoughtful on each of these steps, but at the same time, it's acknowledging that sometimes you have a brilliant thought for what to do in three hours or three weeks or three months even, but you can't do it yet. And so it's this acknowledgement that, hey, this is coming, but I have this beautiful thought. So I'm gonna catch it. I'm gonna put it somewhere safe so that I can come back to it later and use that and follow through with that later. Catch your thoughts. Sharma, we may have to have you on the show. Catch your thoughts. You know, my favorite part of memo-ing in the entire, like, I have to say is taking a step back and it's, and as my friends know, I love talking. Like, I love talking. I know, right? Big surprise. But when doing an interview, it is the time that I get to be quiet. I get to shut up. You know, I get to close my mouth and I get to listen. And it's, I get to listen and I get to watch. And, you know, it's, yes, it's about the voice and it's about whether or not a person leans in or they sit back. I'm actually leaning in and sitting back. I wish. I wish our listeners could see me right now, but you're leaning in or you're sitting back or you're just, you're contemplating, you see their face, their eyebrows frow, and it just, to me, it's everything. It's hand on the face, under the chin. It's, wow, hand on neck. And you know, to me, it's like, I'll write that in my memo. Like, wow, what did that really mean? You know, because to me, like by me writing that, it's me also saying, don't forget to ask. You know, you said something that brought something else up. What did that mean? It's okay to say, can you explain that a little bit more? Because there's a reason. And by it's okay. Dr. Tiffany means here, please do. Please. To make your data so much better. Yes. Please honey. Ciao. Please do. Please do, please do. So yeah, that's my favorite part of memoing. I feel like I'm blushing. Memoing is making me blush. I'm turning like my cheeks are a little flushed. Ooh, I love it so much. Like we're here like, gosh, about this type and this method within qualitative work that just makes us so happy. Cause it is really, it's that decolonizing process of research. It is, it is, it is. So just everybody, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you, thank you so much. Go up there and catch your thoughts. And thank you for leading us through this. You have done such a beautiful job of talking about how beautiful memoing is and why it matters so much and why we all need to use it more often. And I'm just so glad you brought this joy to us. Thank you, thank you, Dr. Lizzie. Thank you, thank you, thank you. You want to close this out today? Absolutely. This has been another episode, another wonderful, beautiful, thoughtful episode of Coloring Outside the Memos. I'm Dr. Lizzie. I'm Dr. Tiffany. And thanks for listening. We'll see you next time. Cheers.