Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And hello, wait! Hold on for a second. Are you starting? You're starting right. Do you want me to start? You start Lindsay. We're starting again Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): so low listeners, and welcome back to another episode of coloring outside the memos, i'm. Dr. Lizzie and I'm, Dr. Tiffany. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and we are so excited for today's conversation. We have another book club on the docket for you today, Dr. Tiffany Talla, Talk to us. What are we talking about today? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Okay, Amazing listeners. Are you ready? Do you have backpacks on? Do you have? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I mean, I'm ready. I'm not here. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So this book is called Decolonizing Ethnography undocumented immigrants and new directions and social science. I I know right. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Oh, a book by 4 authors. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: 2 who are which? who are academics, and 2 who are undocumented immigrants to the country. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and it's really, and those authors are Carolina Carolina. Excuse me, Lucya Juarez, Marion Garcia and Daniel Goldstein the really cool part about it is that this book takes you through the entire process of how it Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: how it started, how the ideas percolated Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: since you're recording in the morning, however, and then most importantly, how like what some of the findings were, or how what, how it brought the community together. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So that's really what this book really talks about. so we're going to start with the preface first, and Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: the preface really addresses how the authors come together, and the importance to addressing the decolonization of ethnography. It also talks about anthropology, so it's ethnography and anthropology at the same time. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Well, those words do go together. They do, they do. And you know what on in our next recording we're going to be talking to Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Dr. Lucia. I know we're so excited. We're so. And girl, and over here Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: are you Fan girling hard? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So we're we're gonna have some questions for Dr. Lucy, a to talk to us about ethnography and anthropology. But when in terms of this particular podcast, or excuse me, this particular episode in this book. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: it was the research was conducted in New Jersey, in a New Jersey town between August 2,011 and August, 2,015. This is kind of pre trump administration. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And so it's really important to to say that. because this is when the policing and harassment of immigrants in the United States was relatively less intense than it would have been under the trump administration. So that's just something to really address. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: At least, that's how the authors Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: put it into their perspective. What were you gonna say, Dr. Lizzie? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I want to just through a little caution into the winds of there has always been harassment and violence towards immigrants in this country. we don't have to look much further than the Chinese Page Act, in which we specifically discriminated and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): stopped Chinese immigrants from coming in. But we can also look at for sterilizations that went on until the seventies, and even still today, in ice facilities, and I I absolutely agree. It was less before the trump years. But Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I would caution us from saying that it didn't exist right, and that's definitely not what i'm saying by any means. It's definitely not saying that it it didn't happen, or none of that by any means. so yes, thank you so much for saying that Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: They want to stress that the findings in these pages were about the rights they the stress, the rights that undocumented immigrants have in this country. So that's really something that you know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: for maybe some of us who Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: How do I want to say who may not think about undocumented immigrants? It's something to really put into perspective, like undocumented immigrants do have rights, and they do have rights in this country. so yeah, it's, it's really something to Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: this book opened my eyes, because I will openly admit I did not think about Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: doing research with. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and again with Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: a demographic of undocumented immigrants in my entire life. This is something that I You know. It's not in my real house. It's not in my it's not something that I would have considered. And now i'm like. Oh, okay, this is something that Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I should definitely consider more as I'm like flipping through the book here. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So I love that it was that journey it was. It was definitely a journey for me, and it's, and it's, and it's not that it's a hard book to read, but it's really it's like you're going back and forth. And you, you know, for me, I was really struggling with myself because it was like, okay, what does it need to decolonize. And so this is something that they bring up. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So i'm gonna ask you like, what does it mean to decolonize to you in your lens, or even in your research. And and I will say this, and saying that to decolonize, particularly in anthropology, but to decolonize, or, for the matter of any social science sciences. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: It means to dis center the academic project as it has been historically understood, or recentering it on a committed social practice. so that's how they define it? or as Gordon, 1,981 defines it. That's how this text defines it. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: It means to again to decenter the Academic project as it has been historically understood. So Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: okay, so that's a different definition than I would have given for decolonizing exactly. And then it goes into this whole idea of what it, what does it mean to co colonialism? What is colonialism? I'm like, Wait a second. We are totally disrupting. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: deconstructing, or destructing Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: is a system of political, economic, and cultural domination in which one nation or people establishes sovereignty over another period. Coloniality period Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: period. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Coloniality is what endures long after the formal systems of colonial rule have disappeared. It includes structures of and ideas about, race, gender, sexuality, characteristics of colonialism, and it's animated by it's with logics of rationality, head on normative Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: patriarchy, white supremacy and eurocentricism. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I know right, like. Just sit back with that Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: just. I I feel like I need to read that because my brain isn't processing all of those words I know right. It's a ton of words Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: for what is colonialism, but it's a very Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: white focused Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: white European Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: perspective. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and who? I guess it's like asking the question, Who has the power? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Hmm. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Hmm. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Hmm. And who is controlling the narrative? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And and that's what they're saying. It's like, okay. So instead of having, you know, you've got this particular area or this discipline that's rooted in Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: your centricism. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: We need to. What we need to do is like, actually talk to the people and not about the people. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Hmm. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So that's where the the text starts to take this interesting turn. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and then starts addressing anthropology and saying, okay, calling. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I don't want to say calling to action anthropology. But but saying, okay, anthropologists out there and the field of anthropology. We really have done Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: a disservice Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: because Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: because and it's like, you know, because we have tended to and granted. We're not trained anthropologists after Lizzie and I are not trained, not our fields. It is not our field. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: but they walk us through this feminist anthropology applied and practicing anthropologists dominant anthropology. It's like, Wait what? This is a thing. So what we shouldn't call people exotic anymore, because i'm pretty sure the field of anthropology started that exactly right, right? Like Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: dear listeners. Please do not ever call a person exotic that's not cute. It doesn't look good, and it definitely doesn't go well on dates. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: You have such a methodic look. You know it's No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! It makes my skin crawl definitely, definitely. I mean Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: so Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: it it's so. It walks you through it. I mean listeners. If you can't tell, i'm super excited about this because I just went right from the pre the preface right into the introduction here, and I was like, okay, so now walks you through. What is anthropology, and what has it done, and how has it not been Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: 8 in this sense? And Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Many social scientists today continue to enjoy intellectual at work of the Academy, yet are searching for ways to engage the world without retracing the colonial footsteps of their ancestors. So what that really means is is that Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: they're not really doing the work. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: They're not. They're all they're doing is this very surface level work. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: It's like saying. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: for instance. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Oh, gosh, i'm just so worked up about this. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): You tell me more, Tell me more. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: It's like saying, hey, You know you come up with a theory, and you're just talking very superficially about the theory. But you don't do any work in the field. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Absolutely possibly. No work in the field, and that's really what the I I felt, and I could very well be wrong. I stand to be corrected, you know, in this particular chapter they call it. They call the field out Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and say, You know you need we need to reach, Fry, trace our steps and say, Listen. It is we need to address the missteps of the founders of anthropology, and and and also kind of take a look at different lens. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Does this mean bringing in a more Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: feminist lens, or what have you? so yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Well, I mean, there's there I like. I have 300 different thoughts right now, and i'm trying to grab one to like actually converse with. But one of the things i'm thinking about is, I get questions from students. A lot of Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): does this paper topic have to be a health issue within the United States? in public health class, or can it be a global perspective? And I always say it can be a global perspective, but only if you do it Well, they look at me and they go. What do you mean by that? And i'm like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): If you are not from that culture? If you don't know people in that culture. If you've not done a lot of research on that culture, writing 400 words on a culture that is at yours is going to be extremely biased. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It just Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): like is right. There is no way for it to not be. And so how do you do that? Well, well, you have to be immersed in it. Right? You have to live and breathe in it. You have to understand that like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): this isn't something new and exciting, that this group of people that I do not belong to is doing. No, they're doing something because it makes sense. Of course it makes sense right like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): maybe they're drinking this brown liquid in a cup that in the morning, and we drink a different color, brown Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): liquid, and in the morning, right? And like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Well, they're drinking something weird and different, and they're not getting their nutrients now. Of course they're getting their nutrients, but it's different than what you get for your nutrients, and you can't look at something with the lens that you have always had on, and I think Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): but it's so hard to compare groups unless you really understand those 2 groups? and I I love this idea of being really Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): able to like. Pull back that surf Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): surface level and go really deep into the middle, because what you see on the surface is inevitably different once you get into the depth of it right, I mean, and I think the the hard part about doing all of this work Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: is. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and an immersing yourself is liberating yourself from what you have been told Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: to do in the Academy. So i'm going to ask you the question, Spicy. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: You liberate yourself, liberate to liberate. So i'm going to ask you, what is liberation within the Academy? What? What does that mean to you like? What would that mean? What would that mean for you to feel like you are doing liberating work? Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Hmm. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Nice dumpy first thing in the morning. You didn't stop me, but I like that is a deep question. and that feels like a 2 h conversation, and not a five-second conversation, but Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): what I guess I would say is liberation to me in the Academy. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and i'm going to think about this in 3 different pockets. The first bucket I'm going to think about is service and overall time. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Liberation to me would be enable Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): would mean being able to say no to things without it having repercussions on either promotion or Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): reputation within any specific space in the Academy. And too often we know that women that Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): people of color that international faculty, that Lgbtq plus faculty Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): don't never say no to service commitments and end up working 1215, 1620 h days to be able to get everything done, because there, 9 to 5 day is filled with meetings and teaching, and they have to put all of this extra space into it in order to fit all of their research work and all of their prep work, because they don't have time for it, and they don't feel like they can say no, so that would be liberating liberating in terms of teaching for me, would be able to Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): not have the constraints of saying, you have to do X, y, and Z Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): because of a, B and C. There's always some constraints on what you can and can't do, and what you can and can't say, and how you're supposed to interpret Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): certain objectives, or certain criteria, or certain whatever. And Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I think of a bell Hooks quote, and i'm not going to get this exactly perfect, but i'm going to get it close. I have it on my wall in my office, but i'm at home and not at work right now, and so I can't look up and just read it to you. the most radical space of learning in the Academy still is in the classroom. Yes, yes. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): or a radical space of transformation. It's something along those lines, and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): blessed bell like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): took us there right and takes us there, and I think, and that makes me think of free air and makes me think of Lots of other Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): beautiful people who have thought about pedagogy as a space for transformation in a space, for freedom from oppression and like that is liberation. And then, when I think about research, I think about research is a space to be able to tell the story of what is actually happening. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): not about what we hope will happening, but we can hold it up as a mirror and say, Look, this is actually what is going on in the world right now, and helping people see it, because so often we walk around with blinders on, and we don't understand what is actually happening right. And I think you you've nailed so many things on the head right here, you know, just saying like. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: What does it mean? Pretty much? What does it mean to be free? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Does it mean to be? I mean to be true to yourself. What does it mean to be authentic in the Academy? And they really there is this a chapter where they kind of address that like, how Daniel, who's the the P. I. On this study. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: he Daniel, was told. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Hey, these are the things that you need to do if you, if you go about doing research in this kind of way. You you may not. it's it's frowned upon. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: you know. and and so it was just really really interesting list like reading, listening, reading these. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: the lives of of each of these authors, you know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: just you know you've got these 2 undocumented women who are a part of this study, who they have 2 very different experiences, you know one where Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: she had a an injury from work. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and you know, being undocumented and having to go to the hospital, and you know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and she was told like you're not going to get your job back. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: you know, which you know, so it breaks your heart. Then you've got another one where her husband gets a speeding ticket, and but is not in the same state, and Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: her husband is also undocumented. And so and they have kids, and you know it's like, okay, so what do you do now? and then you also have the the doctoral student, who is a part of this, who is not just a doctoral student, but also and i'm going to say revolutionary. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: because is is this is a person who is like Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: also Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: protesting and and very, very much an activist, you know, and so trying to set boundaries with the pi to be like. Listen. I also have a life outside of the Academy. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So you there is a chapter where it kind of talks about all of these intersections Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: of lives, and how they worked separately, but also how they work together. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and i'm using the word intersection very liberally. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I want to go back to Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: talking about decolonizing and what it means. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: the first couple of page first couple of pages. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: It talks about Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: what it what decolonizing means. So it's like countering. That requires scholars to once again to take seriously calls to decolonize ethnographic research to re-examine its history. Re but it's present, and to reimagine its future Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: again. I'm going to say the last part again to re-examine its history Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: reinvent its present and Reimagine its future. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Oh. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Oh, by that on page 7 Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: re-examine! Its history Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: reinvent its present and reimagine its future Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Oh, my gosh! That's beautiful Re-examine it's history Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): because otherwise we are telling ourselves lies, and if we build what happened in the past on life, we cannot see what is in a few present, and we can't imagine a better future that is beautiful. Yup Yup. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I mean Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: it requires ethnographers. Now, this is talking about specifically ethnographers Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: to recognize the privilege their colonial heritage bestows, and to dismantle the subject. Object dichotomy, on which all modern science is founded. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: That's a lot of words, so to break it down. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): break it down, help us with our back, just to like re-examine. How you're interacting with people. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): sure. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And then to think about who you are and what you look like, not only to what you look like to the other person Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): like who you are. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Who are you in that space? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So it's not like it's, you know. If I am a If I am a white person, i'm not just gonna roll up in. I'm not white, but Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: for the record. But i'm not going to just roll up into a black or brown area and be like, hey? I'm here. I'm going to do research on you. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: you know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And please don't do that, listeners, please, please, please. And and and if I and the reverse me being a black person, i'm not gonna roll up into another community that is not mine, and be like Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I'm here. I'm gonna do research on you like that's not how it works. So so pretty much it's it's recognizing. And you know Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: it's more than just race like what is what is privilege? What does like you may have, and that's another part that they talk about Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: like the Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: The doc student has privilege because she has a visa. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and she is. She is light skinned. So they talk about colorism, how they they they address colorism. And and then I mean, it just was like, Whoa, this is. This is a lot. This is Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): like a good a lot, you know. so i'm gonna really. Again. I'm getting hyped up, and i'm talking loud, and i'm just like, oh. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I love it! I am here for it. They created this theory called the undocumented activist theory. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and it's a theory of nature to undo documentation. So what it means is, it causes an appropriate response to as developed by undocumented activists themselves. So pretty much it puts the Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: responsibility of the research in the hands of the undocumented people. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It it Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): that is such a better way to approach things. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and it recognizes. And again, and this is coming from page 12. recognizes the structural problems, but identifies the lack of unity among undocumented as a factor Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: contributing to their inability to demand the rights that are there, do as workers and human beings. So again, it's really important to address that just because Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: you've got a group of undocumented people doesn't mean that all of their their problems are the same. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: It's addressing like the multiple problem. There are multiple problems coming from within a group. I know right. Imagine that Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): I it listeners. You miss some nonverbal queues between us, and as making faces of like. Oh, my gosh, not Everyone is the same within a specific group, because. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): like for us, that's obvious, for I think anyone who is a true qualitative researcher. That is obvious, without any Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): doubt. Right? Go back to Badacharya. And how do we construct the world? We all construct the world slightly differently Here go no one within any population, all things the exact same way, but also note that that is a colonizer in a patriarchal way of Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): making people see themselves and saying, Don't, talk to each other, Don't, disclose your status because they want people to not have power, because otherwise they know that the whole system will change, and they want to be able to continue to tell the why that there's no taxation without representation. and Puerto Rico. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Neither does this. Neither does Washington, DC: Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Wait. Are we getting too political? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I mean Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: it's. And I mean that's just again. This is just up to chapter one. Okay, so I know right I I this is going to become a two-part or isn't it, because this is heavy, and I am here for all of it. I want to know all the twist in terms, the twist in turns. I mean I don't know. I don't know we can. I might do my best summarize it in the next like 1520 min. But I'm going to tell you listeners. You know Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: It's Chapter 2. Let me just go to chapter 2. So. Chapter 2. Go ahead, Dr. Lizzie. I'm just saying this might be a a new thing on your Tbr list listeners. It it maybe it may. You should definitely put it on your shelf. You need to get it. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I mean my my book has here. I'm gonna just flip through this Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): like this, Dr. Lizzie, do you see all the tabs that's like a book of my heart? that is what I do to a lot of my most beloved books. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: It's Tab City over here. It is a rainbow Paradise Listeners, it is. It is I'm like, okay, this is, you know. I mean, it's really and it's done by chapters. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and i'm telling you that's that's just me like Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: the chapter 2 really addressed how all of the authors came together. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: as I said before Daniel. He's the professional academic. He was the the Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: the main researcher on this particular one. But I don't want to say main researcher. I'm using air quotes for that because they all became researchers in this. What in in some form or fashion, Marian is an undocumented immigrant Turn activist, Carolina Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Carolina is that the graduate student writing her dissertation at the time, Lucia as undocumented immigrant, turn activists, I mean. They all Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: really Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: just Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: melded well together, and and the one thing that you know I want to say is that Daniel watched. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I can't remember if it was Marian or Lucia's Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: interview They were. They were doing an interview. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Daniel noticed that Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: there was something Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: that Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: happened Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: in the interview. Like like Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: they were able to get all this information out they were able to show empathy they were able to to show. Hey, you know, I understand, because I went through this struggle. I I get it in. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: that was something that Daniel could not Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: express, or he never seen. He had never experienced, you know, and they talk about. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: They talk about this because he is this Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: white heterosexual professor, and he names it. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: They. They they name it in the book Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: this way. What a heterosexual professor! And who comes to the project, and he's at the the reins of the project. But the women it's the women in the group, and you know who Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: who really have a very different Feel Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: for this experience, you know. There's they they talk about like I said, the colorism. You know they talk about how you know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Carolina Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: is in, you know, has the status I don't want to say enjoys, but has a status that some of the other 2 women don't have. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: you know. So I mean it. Really, it breaks it down like that. So that's what Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Chapter 3 does. It talks about these reflections? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: just to kind of give you a little bit of background on Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: the area. So it's called Hometown, New Jersey. That's what they name it. So the city is hometown. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: The people who are incorporated in this area are Latin, X. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And we are going to probably say Latin, X, Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): African, American, and white. so Well, Dr. Stephanie, I am sorry to interrupt. But will you explain Latin for our listeners, and why we're using that term Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: other than the fact that that's how it's used in the book Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: to be perfect. That's that's enough. But if you need more information on the debate, we'll probably have a future episode on that, or maybe we'll ask some upcoming guess about that. We will. You know what we will ask an upcoming guest about that. Why, don't, we do that I think that would be a very good conversation to have. but I think it's most important that that is the Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: You know the language that is using the text. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and and that is how the individuals identify in the book. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and they are from various parts of Latin America. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): beautiful, beautiful. Nothing about us without us. Exactly. Yes, yes. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: so the they're all from this community for, and they they formed a community. An immigrant community call cost a hometown Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: an immigrant rights activist organization, and the workers center that offers various services to immigrant workers and their families in Central New Jersey. So I think it's really important to address the fact that this place, this, this Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: this organization, really comes together to help the immigrant community. and so it's from there that they're able to Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: recruit people to be a part of the study, and what that really looks like to really delve into their experiences. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: so. Gosh. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So there, that's Chapter 3 Chapter 4 really goes into the undocumented activist theory and and using the decolonial methodology. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And I think it's really important to address that. How academics have been trained to do interviews versus activists and people who are from the field Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: complete interviews. And that was what I was just talking about earlier, like when Daniel witnessed. He had this experiencing experience witnessing Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: the other 2 immigrant women coming in and in doing Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: the interviews. I mean. It was just really a a life, I think a life changing experience. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: and Marian and and and Lucia were able to do just that they were able to really get into the lives and the experiences with with Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: the knowledge that they had Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: The chapter 5 Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: really talks, and I also want to address it's also a form of liberation. So again, you know, we were talking about Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: putting the Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: putting the Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: responsibility back in the hands of the people. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: This does just that. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Hmm. Excuse me. So I think it's really really really important. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Chapter 5 is more of a. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: It's a writing piece. It's writing and resistance. That's what it's called Undocumented Theatre Writing and resistance. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I wrote this Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: chapter was a culmination of 2 years being spent dedicated to the work it's concluded with the play exploring the exploitation of the human labor, the fear of deportation in the family separation. So it's really that's that's what was written down in the chapter, and I think it is really important to address that. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: you know, being undocumented, comes with all of these. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Experience can can come, not not all the time, but can come with various experiences. And this is just somebody Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: experiences. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So yeah, I I. The really cool part is, one page will be in Spanish, and then the other page will be in English. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): So if you really want to test your Spanish skills so for it. But there is an English side. So it was really it was really cool. to to see that Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And then, lastly, the chapter 6 Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: One of the pages. One of the quotes that I wrote down was: we have suggested the best and the only way to counter colonial anthropology, and his principal method. Ethnography is to rethink research at every level, from conception to practice, to write up and dissemination. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And i'm like, Yes, hmm. Like we need something that we should all be doing all of the time when we're writing. When we're writing our our research. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Lucy and Marian disrupt the liberal rights discourse that excludes them. And it's in this country by mobilizing a theory of undocumented nation that emphasizes a need for solidarity and collective action that's on page 138. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Above all, decolonial ethnography is about enabling local people Historically, the objects of research to become the subjects in the research process and to use the knowledge that they produce to advance their decolonizing struggles. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Hmm. So Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I say all this to say. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: this text Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: really Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: breaks down. How we Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: don't have to exclude Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: the community that we're working with, how we can really incorporate the community into the research process. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: And I mean, they do name like, okay. This is participatory action, Research, Pr: They do name that which is great, but it's more also known as Cb. Pr. Yes. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: but it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to stop right there Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: it really Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: be. Be in the research process with the academic themselves. They, too, are the academic. It doesn't have to be this separation. So I I think that that was what I was walking away with from understanding this text. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: There's so much more that I walked away with from understanding the text again. This is a demographic that I never am. I right? Mind like would have thought about. Am I you? I just would not have Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: so I am very appreciative to have had the opportunity to have read it. Yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): so it's sounding to me a little bit like the first time I ever heard the reason why Bell hooks Doesn't: capitalize her name. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Hmm. Yeah, it's it's Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): a practice of removing the power differential, right? And reminding yourself that you don't Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): have more Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): right to exist then somebody else, or you don't have more Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): to be aware of. Power. Right and power is such an invisible thing. I used to do this Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): teaching session with grad students. We're just for starting to be professors in the classroom, and I would say to them all. How many of you feel like you have power and literally 0 hands would be raised. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): And yet, when you ask the undergrad students, I would say, how many of you feel like your professors have a lot of power? And Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): they were all right. Every single hand would go up and I would say, okay, but you're Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): instructor is, or your professor is a grad student, and they were like Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): they have so much power. And I was like. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): okay. And if you ask a group of faculty, how much power do you feel like you have? Almost no one raises their hand right because they don't feel like they have any power, because they're getting all of these. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): It it mandates from administration or from accreditation, boards, or from whatever right and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): power is such a nebulous, invisible concept. Right and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): academics are taught that we don't have any power. The funders have power. The publishing journals have power. The whoever has power over you right? Their viewers Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): right. You never feel like you have power, and yet you have an immense amount of power over the people you are doing research on, and being able to see that invisible power construct is so so important. So what i'm hearing from this analysis of the text is helping people understand a. That they have power, and be one of the ways to remove; that by giving other people that same Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: power or ability to be influential in every aspect of that research. Right? I will say the one thing that they that the authors address, particularly the women who are undocumented immigrants. They talked about the pride and putting their names Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: on the text, because. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: as people who do not have Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: who are as women who who are undocumented, there is a risk involved. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah. And so that Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: this Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: this right here is the power by them. And i'm tapping the book right now with my nail like this is the power of them like taking back their life, you know. so yeah, it was. You're You're absolutely positively right. It this text was extremely powerful. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: It took a lot of. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: you know, re-reading for me because there are parts where I was like. Wait what? And again, i'm not an anthropologist by trade. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So it. You know. The section where it talks about anthropology was was really hard for me, but otherwise it was a really fantastic read. Thank you so much to Carolina and Marian, Lucy and Daniel. It was just a beautiful, beautiful, well written Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: text, and if I was teaching, I would definitely teach using this one. So it's a high recommendation. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah. Well, it is Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): given us some good information and good contacts and listeners, you know. Add it to yourself. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): One of the ways we can support people is by giving money to people who need it. And Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): they shared their story, and a really powerful and vulnerable way, and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): that deserves dollars. If anything does, it does, it does. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So that that was the brief version of this beautiful text. I hope you pick it up. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, I can't wait to read it myself. thank you for taking us on this journey. I feel like I've learned a lot. Any take home points that you want to leave listeners with. I think some of the take home points I want to leave listeners with is, you know, when we're talking about decolonization, you know. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: just think about where the authors are coming from, because, you know, I think Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: there's ways that that I was introduced to decolonization. And what does that really mean? Do you go even when you write it? Do you write it with d slash colonization? Do you write it together like, what does it mean? What does it mean for you? What does it mean in the literature? Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: So that that was something that you know, as I was writing my most recent piece for publication, and as I was reading this book, it's something that I've been personally like personally struggling with Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: in a good way. and so yeah, I I think Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: that's something that I would want to leave people with is just to to really be open. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Continue to be open as your on your own journey with your backpack. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Yeah, yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and engage in that good challenge and that could struggle, and that i'm thinking in new ways, because Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): when we think we know everything is when we tend to get ourselves into a lot of trouble, we don't. We can't and always be open to hearing that new perspective and that new idea. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: I agree. I agree. Yeah. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Well, thank you, Dr. Lizzie. Thank you, Dr. Tiffany. I love this episode, and I know the listeners did, too. It was such a good journey. and think about your own work, and how qualitative work, answers or doesn't. Answer this question, and Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): what you can do to be more aware of colonization and of power. Differentials. Tiffany Monique Quash, PhD - CTRL: Yes, yes. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): all right. Well listeners, don't forget to like, and subscribe us on our social media channels. If you have questions, comments, concerns, or things, you want us to cover email us at C. Otm. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): Pod at gmail.com, and with that i'm Dr. Lizzie, i'm Dr. Tiffany. Lizzy Bartelt (she/her): and we'll see you next time. Cheers.